A new magnet motor...

[Jonathan]

Michael, that is not known to be physically possible (it'd be a pseudomonopole and would violate the Divergence Theorem), even if you cast it as one, strange, magnet. Making it with many little ones won't work either, because the flux will "leak" through the joints between the magnets. Not to mention that it'd explode it you even looked at it. :)
Ralph, I've taken a closer look at Ken's attachment, and you're right, it could work. And most reliably so if the distance between the center of the axle magnet (when axle is at rest in the center) and the center of any stator magnet were less than √(8) times the radius of the magnets (assuming all have the same radius). But, I don't think it would be very reliable.

[Michael]

>Michael, that is not known to be physically possible (it'd be a pseudomonopole and would violate the Divergence Theorem), even if you cast it as one, strange, magnet. Making it with many little ones won't work either, because the flux will "leak" through the joints between the magnets. Not to mention that it'd explode it you even looked at it. :)

Not true Jonathan. I haven't made a sphere but I have joined magnets this way. The flux does not leak through the joins. It all depends on how tight they are. It is possible that the magnets will loose their strength after a long while because of this but I haven't seen it, and it would depend on how large the sphere was in relation to the field strength. Nor would it be a monopole. The hollow sphere still has two poles, one is just inside the globe, the field penetrating the space inside. It's not much different than a magnetic cylinder.

[Michael]

images courtesy of Ralph.

Ralph I had to crop the last one. I also coverted them to 256 colors to save space, you can't notice it.

[rlortie]

Michael,

THank you for posting my pictures.

As suggested I tried reducing the pixel count and cropping, clipping etc. to no avail. In the future I think it would be easier for me to drop the resolution on the camera.

I stand behind you on your dome idea, I do not see what any leakage could do to harm it or defeat its purpose. a half ball with N on the inside and S on the outside is nothing that has not already been accomplished.

It does open my eyes to another method that I must try. Use a large doughnut speaker magnet. machine a ferrous metal pipe cap that will fit into the center. The cap should pick up the matching polarity and act just as your sphere.

Ralph

[Jonathan]

Michael, if the little magnets are properly fitted and the structure isn't a complete sphere, then yes, it is possible for the flux not the "leak" through. But that's not what my previous post was about, I was talking about a complete sphere.
The Divergence Theorem says that the net flux through any piecewise smooth closed 3d surface is equal to the net source/sink inside the surface. If this surface is a sphere encompassing a radially magnetized sphere, then, like you say, there is no net source or sink inside, there are two poles of equal strength. But this means that there can be no net flux through the surface, which means that the flux from the interior of the sphere must be leaking out, and, that flux from outside the sphere must be leaking in (flux forms complete loops).
The flux inside a magnetic cylinder comes out the ends.

[ken_behrendt]

Interesting discussion on the problems of trying to magnetically suspend axles and objects. Glad my previously posted floating axle design found favor...wish we had tried it.


Michael...

I once did try to make a pseudo magnetic monopole by gluing tiny disc shaped ceramic magnets to the surface of a ping pong ball and then placing it inside of a curved bowl whose surface had been covered with larger ceramic disc magnets all with the same pole face pointing toward the magnetic ping pong ball. It did not work. The ball would jostled itself around until some flux coupling took place and then it was pulled down against the inner surface of the the bowl.

I even considered the idea of making a hollow sphere from wedge shaped magnetic pieces so that I would wind up with a nice, smooth ball whose outer surface had one polarity and whose inner surface would have the opposite magnetic polarity. However, I think that this would be similar to having two concentric metal spheres that each carry equal, but opposite, electrical charges.

Yet, apparently, the problem of magnetic suspension must have been solved, because I remember a friend telling me that they have magnetic bearings used in gyroscopes. I have not studied these, but, I suspect, they probably use powerful magnets to suspend a gyro axle in a manner similar to what I suggested in my last attachment.


ken

[Michael]

Michael, if the little magnets are properly fitted and the structure isn't a complete sphere, then yes, it is possible for the flux not the "leak" through. But that's not what my previous post was about, I was talking about a complete sphere.
The Divergence Theorem says that the net flux through any piecewise smooth closed 3d surface is equal to the net source/sink inside the surface. If this surface is a sphere encompassing a radially magnetized sphere, then, like you say, there is no net source or sink inside, there are two poles of equal strength. But this means that there can be no net flux through the surface, which means that the flux from the interior of the sphere must be leaking out, and, that flux from outside the sphere must be leaking in (flux forms complete loops).
The flux inside a magnetic cylinder comes out the ends.

If you look very carefully at what magnetic lines of force are on a magnet, and how they change from pole to pole you'll soon realize they are mirrored entities. They, or it is, (lines of force or flux) pure symmetry, and in order to exist need each other as counterparts and need that interconnected feed into and away from each other. I was laying down this afternoon and realized Jonathan was right. In a perfect enclosed sphere the inner field can't feed into the outer field, and so neither of them can exist. Half or partial spheres will work.

Ralph your idea of a donut is a good one, as long as the ends remain open.

[rlortie]

What is meant and of what purpose is the term leakage a concerned subject here.

to my knowledge there is no substance that can completely block a magnetic field. If such was to exist or be discovered every magnet motor ever devised would work.

Magnets attached to a metallic or plastic sphere will not be inhibited by the shape or thickness of material. It is the lines of force circumferential on the outer rim and in the center that one should be interested in.

The concave sphere only needs a ring of magnets around the rim with one in the center. The matching convex sphere is of same configuration only with polarity reversed. The outer sphere should have one more magnet than the inner. This produces the 'Hunting effect" required for smooth operation

Ken,

Yes magnetic bearings do exist in a number of designs. There are two functions to consider and that is Thrust and Guide, some bearings are designed to perform both (compound) while others of larger size only perform one function. NO matter their size or function the lines of force between the carrier and the carried are alway cutting one another. At very low rpm and in small bearings this action can be describe as pulling a hacksaw over a thin sheet of metal. Proper speed weight and gauss ratios will negate this unwanted effect.

Personally I have had very good luck producing thrust bearings in my shop using recycled speaker magnets. It is the guide bearings that give me fits.

Ever try machining a ceramic magnet in an engine lathe. Believe me it can be done but before you are through the lathe and every tool that has made contact with the shavings will be magnetized. It seems that the manufacturing of speaker magnets could care less as to the tolerance of the center hole and the roundness of the circumference. I have yet to find any that were not out of round and the hole off center.

EDIT: Michael, you squeezed in, Note my explantation that the sphere will not keep the magnet from completing it mirrored path unless you have discovered a material that will shield it. Magnets need only be on one side of your concave and convex spheres. Even it you do put them on both sides the fields will still work.

Ralph

[Michael]

It's not blocking Ralph, it's a case where the fields just can't exist. It's like when magnetic materials loose their magnetic fields when the dipoles change alignment and become random. In this case the poles aren't open to each other so there is no possibility for symmetry. You can try it but I don't think a perfect sphere is going to work. A partial sphere will.

[Jonathan]

I think you're both a little wrong, the flux will "exist", won't be "blocked", and will "leak". Even if you found a way to cast the radially magnetized sphere in one piece, with no holes, then the flux will still "leak", between the atoms (it won't be happy though). In theory it would have no bulk magnetism at all.
PS. I keep putting these words in quotes because there is a great likelyhood that flux doesn't truely exist, but is actually just an abstraction. On the other hand, in what sense does any of the physical world truely exist?

[Michael]

We'll both have to agree that it's now just a matter of opinion Jonathan. I'm a little confused by your term of leak because leak implys something is escaping and if this were true then the field would be maintained.
Tomato, Tomauto. I think it's all a matter of symmetry which can't exist to create and maintain a magnetic field under that type of form.

[ken_behrendt]

I've come to the conclusion that magnetic fields are actually made up of subatomic particles which are created by the realignment of subatomic particles that compose electric fields. These particles are massless and, ordinarily, would travel at light velocity, but, in the case of magnetic fields, actually can be envisioned as forming long stationary curving streams of linked particles whose spin directions point away from the North pole of a magnet and toward the South pole.

These particles would be highly penetrating of matter so that they can not be felt my passing one's hand through a magnetic field or blocked by placing a shield along their curved lengths.

Anyway, I imagine them as roughly corresponding in shape to the convention magnetic field lines that are used to visualize a magnetic field.


ken

[turulato]

It appears that it would be a good idea for you guys that are into magnets to contact Jon De'Pew, I hear a lot about magnetics but this is the only guy that I know is doing something about it. He had a webpage with lots of pictures;

http://home.earthlink.net/~mergis/id3.html

but it seems to be gone now, so try this;

http://www.world-mysteries.com/coralcastle.htm

he might be on to something, if I remember correctly he even showed a picture of a ball bearing floating with a string attached.

Good luck.

Turulato

[JuddBrooks]

http://www.wondermagnet.com/halbach.html

magnet leaks? check the above link for possible help. :)[/url]

[ken_behrendt]

turulato...

I, too, have been awed by Ed Leedskalnin's monumental construction of Coral Castle. The idea that he did this single-handedly is amazing and certainly might lead one to suppose he had discovered the secret of levitation and used it. However, I think there were witnesses that observed him moving the massive blocks of coral about and he apparently just used homemade tripods equipped with a heavy duty block and tackle to lift the chunks of coral onto an off of a small flatbed truck he owned.

As far as a magnetic "current" is concerned, I have to admit that I would consider it a possibility. After all, if one can accept that a magnetic field is made up of static subatomic particles that float in space, then, if they could be made to circulate about the closed loops they form, then that could properly be referred to as a "current".

Unfortunately, we still do not have devices for creating such magnetic currents. When we finally do, then I expect some very interesting new physics to emerge from it all...


ken