Bessler's Secret Force

[wikiwheel]

JimMich

I'm guessing that is what happened. There was only one place to "grope around" and that was his hole at the axle. I don't think Gravesand started tearing off the linen covering. He went "beyond the bounds", which implies the route he took was acceptable, up to a certain point.

He reached in too far.

Mik

[jim_mich]

Like I said...

I was unaware that Gravesande was allowed to reach inside the wheel?

I've heard it mentioned that Bessler allowed some friends to reach inside some of his wheels. I'd be interested to know when and which wheels? Was it one of the early wheels? Was it some close friends, or was it anyone that wanted to reach inside? Was the wheel a working wheel so that they reached in just before or after the wheel turned? Or was it maybe during construction and the wheel was missing the inside working components?

In other words, what was all the circumstances surrounding this?

Where was the hole in the axle? Where was this documented?

[10x]

Bessler's secret force was created by changing the resonant frequency of a swinging pendulum.

Amusing idea. Reality though is such that pendulum is used for inertia, or the swing torque. One other thing such as shown in drawings, is a simple gravity spring.

The gravity spring can be used to act as an cam weight set by the torque of the offset force on a wheel. In other words a short transfer from a kinetic motion of the wheel will cause the pendulum to swing in direct motion to the wheel. Such can be used as a short storage of energy, though will not operate as a normal pendulum does. Time periods will change due to such.

[bluesgtr44]

I have seen nothing that supports 'sgravesand was able to reach inside the wheel. He does make a comment in AP directed at Wagner in response to Wagners "turnspit" wheel.

AP...pg. 335, J. Collins pub..."Ask any of those who have groped inside my Wheel and grasped its axle - and you will be assured, in no uncertain terms, that my axle is not like that. Rather, it has many compartments, and is pierced all over with various holes. Anyone with a bit of understanding will see that my machine works in quite a different manner."

As far as the one directional wheels go and whether there may have been a sweet spot for the auto-start.

AP...pg. 275...J. Collins..."The bolts which regulated the motion were screwed into and out of the axle by many people, for I allowed all my friends to operate it."

It seems as though someone would have picked up on this effect if it existed. I think it was a constant effect, loaded to one side...all the time. JMHO.....


Steve

[Stewart]

Hi Jim

I think what you're referring to are the events described in AP Part II Chapter X. Bessler tells how the crowd of visitors managed to get inside the railings that surrounded the Merseburg wheel, surged up to it and some managed to grope around inside it. He then goes on to talk about Wagner's spit-jack wheel and how it shows the shaft/axle as being cut through and separated, and then joined back together by a pin/pivot (metal rod). He says Wagner claims that Bessler's wheel is the same, but Bessler says that's a lie. He says ask those who groped inside my wheel and touched its shaft/axle, and you will be assured that it is not so, but rather has many compartments* and various/several holes right through. He says anyone who understands only a little would see that his wheel goes completely differently.

* sorry, I don't have time to do a full study of this piece of text at the moment and so I've just summarised it. I'm not 100% sure of the translation of the sentence that talks about 'compartments' - there are other meanings, and it might be possible to get a better idea of what Bessler is talking about with a bit more study. The word in question is 'Fächer' and it is the plural of 'Fach'. It can mean compartments/shelves/fans: http://www.dict.cc/?s=Fach or http://www.dict.cc/?s=Fächer

All the best
Stewart

[Stewart]

Hi Steve

Sorry, you got in there before me and so I've pretty much repeated what you said.

I didn't quite follow what you were implying with the second quote, but as you know I've explained in other topics how the translation of this in John's AP book is rather misleading and has caused people to think that Bessler is saying people could regulate the motion by screwing a bolt in and out of the axle. What Bessler actually says is he allowed friends to unscrew from the axle the cranks/pivots which support the wheel.

Stewart

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Stewart, I agree...

I didn't quite follow what you were implying with the second quote, but as you know I've explained in other topics how the translation of this in John's AP book is rather misleading and has caused people to think that Bessler is saying people could regulate the motion by screwing a bolt in and out of the axle. What Bessler actually says is he allowed friends to unscrew from the axle the cranks/pivots which support the wheel.

My fault, I should have emphasized the "allowed all my friends to operate it"...this is what I find interesting because if this was so, it seems there would have been a bit of a mention as to a "neutral" spot. So, this leads me to believe that it was OOB all the time...to one side...it was tied off for a reason, not for show....


Steve

[Stewart]

Where was the hole in the axle? Where was this documented?

This comes from one of Wagner's documents:

"Bey dem ietzigen zu Merseburg verfertigten Rade aber, so mit Leinwand verkleidet, sind circa axin unterschiedliche Oeffnungen gelassen, und mit angeheffteten Bändern wieder zugebunden."

Here's my translation:

"However with the current wheel made at Merseburg, which is covered with canvas, several openings are left around the axle, and tied up again with attached bands/strips/ribbons."

See this page on John's website for a full translation of the document: http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/waner ... que_2.html

Stewart

[Stewart]

I didn't know, that in earlier times the word Künste is used for energy production.

So I get the origin of my family name now.

The word isn't used for energy production specifically - 'Kunst' means art, craft, skill etc. Bessler uses the word a lot to refer to his wheels, and so I think the best word to use would be 'craft'. He also refers to his wheels as his 'Werk', which means 'work' as in 'a work of art/craft' i.e. 'woodwork', 'clockwork' etc. 'Künstler' means artist or craftsman.

Stewart

[Stewart]

My fault, I should have emphasized the "allowed all my friends to operate it"...this is what I find interesting because if this was so, it seems there would have been a bit of a mention as to a "neutral" spot. So, this leads me to believe that it was OOB all the time...to one side...it was tied off for a reason, not for show....

He doesn't actually say he allowed friends to operate it, just that he allowed them to screw the cranks in and out of the axle. However, there's no reason to think that he wouldn't have let them stop and start it (we know he let people operate his bi-directional wheels during the tests), and I agree with your view that it was constantly overbalanced (the quote refers to the Draschwitz wheel).

Stewart

[P-Motion]

new to forum. don't understand.
Doubt Bessler's wheel could ever work, but think p.m.is possible using gravity.
How would I answer the poll ?

The 'origin' of Bessler's Secret Prime Mover Force ?

Please indicate which option you currently believe to be correct - you can only select one option so be sure it is the one you are committed to.

The idea is to get a 'feel' for what percentage of respondents feel that 'Gravity Only' is the 100% the correct route to success for a self sustaining wheel v's the percentage who feel that 'Gravity Only' is 100% the wrong direction & a complete red hearing & misdirection.

This exercise will polarize the results clearly & force respondents to make a clear choice of option. If you feel very strongly about your choice add a post comment as well.

N.B. There is no need to elaborate on what "Gravity Only" means as it has been discussed previously at length in recent threads. Also "origin" is taken to mean at the local level.

In each case it is assumed that the Prime Mover Force of choice is or can be coupled to a Gravity OOB system as a matter of course.

[bluesgtr44]

Would gravity be the primary source?


Steve

[Deven]

I've been thinking about this a bit more.

If a wheel were capable of turning with gravity alone, and actually doing work, couldn't that extra work be transferred to an electromagnet, which in turn would then apply more force to the masses, causing more work to be done? Would the potential amount of energy be virtually limitless?

[P-Motion]

Yep. From what I have been able to understand is that at some point the wheel would need to accelerate.
This would allow for force to be generated.
This is why I am not big fan of a "fixed" axis

Would gravity be the primary source?


Steve

[wikiwheel]

I think I like the idea of a parametric oscillation being accelerated by gravity alone.

A pendulum. The wheel is a pendulum anyway, since it will rock back and forth unless it can accelerate past the start point.



Mik