Bessler's Wheel

[debbie]

Thanks Ralph, did you mean that it might not move at all? Or that it might do one quarter revolution then stop?

I drew the top right hand box with the two weights together on the left (at A) as I thought that the arm going over the top to the left of it would move the weights to that position, that may however be wrong.

Your comments are appreciated.

Debbie

[debbie]

Debbie,
I took another look at your design. Please take some time to consider this.
Going by C, if the wall in the top box that the balls are against is shaped differently, then the weights both could move against the outer wall sooner.
This would be by having the upper part of the inside wall going out further and a ramp on the floor.
And in the box on the right, if the floor is a ramp, then the weights might move towards center quicker.
I think that is the way I'd look at pursuing your design. It is an interesting concept.

Thanks Jim, It's so simple yet because of the four movements in the boxes and just three positions in the wheel I can't get my head around what is really going on. I will have a think about the suggestions you make. But I have to bear in mind that all four sides in each of the boxes must be identical so that the same thing happens at each position in one revolution.

My four drawings just depict what I think would be going on in one quarter turn, and then it repeats for each quadrant.

Debbie

[P-Motion]

Merci beaucoup. Bon chance avec ton idee.
If you want, over time, I can help you with the math.

Jim

Thanks Jim, It's so simple yet because of the four movements in the boxes and just three positions in the wheel I can't get my head around what is really going on. I will have a think about the suggestions you make. But I have to bear in mind that all four sides in each of the boxes must be identical so that the same thing happens at each position in one revolution.

My four drawings just depict what I think would be going on in one quarter turn, and then it repeats for each quadrant.

Debbie

[Clarkie]

Debbie,
You live in France but you write in English as an native of England.

Are you English?

By the way, I think you are doing very well for a newbe but I'll let you work out who the good guys are and who are the ones that just like the "sound of their own voice".

The Bessler puzzle is like a good book, you just can't put it down. I've been at it for over 9 years and I'm new to it. There are guys on this site that have been trying to solve this for over 40 years.

I still believe Bessler did it, so it can be done and it will be done again but be prepared for the long haul.

Good luck.

Pete.

[rlortie]

Debbie,

Thanks Ralph, did you mean that it might not move at all? Or that it might do one quarter revolution then stop?

As to how long or far a wheel will turn, will of course depend on two factors. Disregarding friction, those two are how much input is applied to start and how far out of balance it actually symmetrically is. This can get a little perplexing as a true intended balanced wheel will turn for a long time on applied inertia alone. On the other side of the coin; Not unlike a pendulum a wheel can be considered balanced when at rest with COG below and vertical with axle.

As per your design, I believe it will turn, how far will depend on above factors. What I do believe is it will stop in the same position as you show starting, not necessarily in the same quadrant.

As previously stated this concept is new to me. In order to throw together a quick test proto-type I would have to start from scratch, I have nothing in my inventory that comes close other than the disks, weights, levers, and axle to mount it on.

Come to think of it, that only leaves the involute convex rectangles doesn't it? I will have to take a closer look at this. Debbie please be patient, if you and consensus input agree that it may be worth a build, I will consider a go at it. Prefer to let the math and simulation members have their say first.

Pete-Debbie,

By the way, I think you are doing very well for a newbie but I'll let you work out who the good guys are and who are the ones that just like the "sound of their own voice".

Well said! I agree, even though I may be considered one who fits the latter category. :-)

One thing that bugs me is the manner in which one member posts a quote for response. He makes his statement first and then enters the quote. It has been a common procedure here to make the quote first. Then you know what the statement applies to.

Ralph

[P-Motion]

Clarkie,
Ya know, it would be just as easy for me to say that Ralph has been pushing me. It is not unusual for someone to be more demanding of someone they see potential in.
That could be why my immigrant (English as a 4th language) father required more of me than my brothers.
But if you look at the discussion of gravity in sellign a working wheel, if they knew their physics, they'd also know that a physicist has said that he ahs observed light moving slower than C based on its' wave length. But after a few cycles, it reverts back to C. Whoioch would eman that unless can be conclusively proven, the velocity of gravity has been and still will be 9.8 m/s/s.
But I have said before, math is boring. There is no dream like quality to it.
And it is like I have mentioned to a person I know who has a Ph.D> in engineering, it would be nice for a qualified person to say that something rolling down a ram will move slower than a wheel.
I can't get anyone to say that.
And for p.m. to work requires work be constantly performed or a body going into a stae of conservation generating momentum.
Sad to say, that is the physics of it.
I guess things depend on if you'd like to see an idea work or if you prefer to have more friends.
Knowing Americans hate people like my dad and he hates them puts me in a poor position.
I think I'll stick to math. It is cold hearted and doesn't care.

The Bessler puzzle is like a good book, you just can't put it down. I've been at it for over 9 years and I'm new to it. There are guys on this site that have been trying to solve this for over 40 years.

I still believe Bessler did it, so it can be done and it will be done again but be prepared for the long haul.

Good luck.

Pete.

[P-Motion]

Say Ralph,
Could you do me a favor and critique my math ?
No one has been willing to do it yet.
It's really simple, how fast does a weight descend when suspended from an overhead ramp compared to how fast a wheel spins when force is applied to it.
Thanks for the help.

Jim

Debbie,

Thanks Ralph, did you mean that it might not move at all? Or that it might do one quarter revolution then stop?

As to how long or far a wheel will turn, will of course depend on two factors. Disregarding friction, those two are how much input is applied to start and how far out of balance it actually symmetrically is. This can get a little perplexing as a true intended balanced wheel will turn for a long time on applied inertia alone. On the other side of the coin; Not unlike a pendulum a wheel can be considered balanced when at rest with COG below and vertical with axle.

As per your design, I believe it will turn, how far will depend on above factors. What I do believe is it will stop in the same position as you show starting, not necessarily in the same quadrant.

As previously stated this concept is new to me. In order to throw together a quick test proto-type I would have to start from scratch, I have nothing in my inventory that comes close other than the disks, weights, levers, and axle to mount it on.

Come to think of it, that only leaves the involute convex rectangles doesn't it? I will have to take a closer look at this. Debbie please be patient, if you and consensus input agree that it may be worth a build, I will consider a go at it. Prefer to let the math and simulation members have their say first.

Pete-Debbie,

By the way, I think you are doing very well for a newbie but I'll let you work out who the good guys are and who are the ones that just like the "sound of their own voice".

Well said! I agree, even though I may be considered one who fits the latter category. :-)

One thing that bugs me is the manner in which one member posts a quote for response. He makes his statement first and then enters the quote. It has been a common procedure here to make the quote first. Then you know what the statement applies to.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Debbie,

I've not seen this principle proposed, no doubt someone will tell me if it has.

As Pete stated some of us have been at this for over 40 years. I have been at it 50 years as of March this year. And I am happy to tell you that I have not seen anything like your depiction. Not that it has not been tried, but it is new to me.

I like the overall looks of your idea. First nothing is symmetrical to the wheel and all is supported by/at the axle. All transition or transference is carried to the axle and not pinned to the wheel itself, for my thinking this is a big plus! The three extended weights balance to the axle and have the ability to add inertia yet stay basically balanced allowing the retainment of that inertia.

Debbie the more I look the more I am impressed. Now I await someone to refute or debate my statements.

Jim from Washington,

Ya know, it would be just as easy for me to say that Ralph has been pushing me. It is not unusual for someone to be more demanding of someone they see potential in.

Yes! Ralph has been pushing you, but not quite for the reasons that you imagine. This statement for example is one of them, does the word "conceit" mean anything to you?

person to say that something rolling down a ram will move slower than a wheel.
I can't get anyone to say that.

And why should they, this does not make sense, I presume that "ram" (Male goat) is meant to be "ramp"... but even after overlooking your typing error this still does not make sense. What ever "rolls" down a ramp, cylinder, disk or spherical must have the same physical properties enabling them to roll, the same properties as a wheel. How fast or slow will a wheel travel. I posted the answer in a link yesterday, Galileo did it with a ramp ball and wires, using the audible sound created by the wires.

As I have stated before, you need to spend more time on research than listening to yourself become the court jester. When a link is posted regarding such matters, open it up an you will find the answer you seek.

Your logic sometimes leaves a lot to be desired. You claim to be an expert in math, yet your basics is based on something such as:

If a chicken and a half can lay an egg and a half in a week and a half. How long will it take a tree frog to kick the "dill" out of a dill pickle.

Yea! I see potential in you, but I fear it is going to take more than me to help guide it down the right path and learn to not only benefit by it but learn to control it.

Ralph

[P-Motion]

Yea! I see potential in you, but I fear it is going to take more than me to help guide it down the right path and learn to not only benefit by it but learn to control it.

Ralph

It's all good Ralph.
Like you said, to test Debbies' idea, you have everything. To testa simple counter-balanced arm, you require reimbursement be known up front. It is how you work.
So it is not to show that it is possible why you do it but for your own ego.
I'm not sure of anyone else that has divulged full information just to be attaqcked because they're not being greedy about it.
That is sad. For sex or money. Not for the realization of something that would be special.
You could never be my mentor becaue I am to far ahead of you. You're silly little arguments have nothing to do with anything but your pride.
Could it be oyu are afraid that in 2 moths I figeures out Bessler's puzzle while Clarkie said some people ahve been at it for 40 years.
Maybe applying math to engineering for 18 years helped. But then, you are a retired engineer. But in what field ?
Was it in auto-dynamic behavior ? I doubt this.
But as I pointed out to one reporter that is aware of this, Einstein got published in 1906 for claiming light could be bent going past a dense body, star or a brown dwarf like our sun. They're all the same thing.
In 1927, it was proven. The problem with the hypothesis is that light has no mass and can not be effected by gravity.
Einstein caculated the impossible 21 years before it was proven true.
And today a group of scientists have calculated the upper potential mass of a photon which has a 0 mass. This over 90 years later. And how can a masless potential have potential for mass ?
Go figure, or better yet, go back to school.

[P-Motion]

Ya know Ralphie, I have put my math out there to be critiqued.
No one has done it yet. But I will hear you insult me.
So typically American. Insult soemone when they discuss somehting that is over their head.
FYI, English is my 2nd language and my dad's 4th. He's one of those immigrants you don't like. Working in a factory let's me hear what Americans think about foreigners.
Sad to say, I could go to Russia or France or Europe with my idea and most likely recieve some co-operation. Not have everyone say, you don't get something for nothing, but if you prove it to us then we will take it.
And there's the problem, give something for free, no effort to learn on the part of anyone but one person and we will call it good.
And that is very American.

P-Motion,

Your above link lead me to the forum where I was directed to another link called "PhotoBucket" There I was told that the photos could not be found.

If all you have is photos why can you not simply post them here as an attachment. Change the file app to a low resolution such as a .gif

Chasing after your images reminds me of the quote; "Perpetual Motion is man chasing Perpetual Motion"

After indulging myself in all seven pages of the thread, I came to two conclusions. You have the patience to debate with armchair philosophers, and the blindness not to see that it is a waste of time.

Even here you will find your share of skeptics, but at least we are a group that for the better part, prevail in substantiating before bothering with name dropping of famous quotes.

Do you want to talk "wheel" or continue debate with parties that can throw irrelevant quotes at you all day limelighting there ability to remember what some one else has already said.

In those seven pages their are two posts that I can relate to. One is from Scott saying build it, he will back it. The other simply implies "Build it".

I you wish to use the excuse that you cannot build do to a bicycle accident or lack of resources, then instead of debating about it seek assistance.
There are a number of "skunk Work" facilities that look forward to analyzing designs for gravity wheels. If they look viable or questionable, farther physical "hands on" investigation will be taken.

In short talk, it is my opinion you are attempting to present your ideas on the wrong forum. Here we are already considered "Cranks" and I for one am proud of it.

As for famous quotes, was it not Einstein that said: 'Why should I clutter my mind memorizing that which I can look up in a book"

Ralph

[rlortie]

Jim from Washington.
Edited for brevity;

It's all good Ralph.
Like you said, to test Debbies' idea, you have everything. To testa simple counter-balanced arm, you require reimbursement be known up front. It is how you work.

There you go again, making assumptions. Where did you get the idea that I require reimbursement to be known up front. Next you will be saying, if I build it and it works I will claim it as mine. I have built a number of designs for fellow forum members and only two ever assisted in supplying materials. As for compensation I have never received a dime. You obviously do not know how I work.

As for what kind of engineer would I qualify for? It is mechanical and structural, career related to hydro-electric and architectural designing of buildings and machinery.

I'm not sure of anyone else that has divulged full information just to be attacked because they're not being greedy about it.

And where and when did you dream up this concoction. And who has divulged full information on anything that worked? I do not see any Bessler facsimiles grinding away, do you?

Ralph

[rlortie]

Jim from Washington,

you wrote;

FYI, English is my 2nd language and my dad's 4th. He's one of those immigrants you don't like. Working in a factory let's me hear what Americans think about foreigners.

Talk about assumptions and making inflammatory remarks, you just step over the barrier. You do not seem to realize that you are talking to a foreign exchange student foster parent.

I have had a house full of students from Turkey, Uzbekistan, Romania, Germany, Thailand, and three other Baltic countries. So do not tell me or anyone I associate with that I do not like foreigners.

Any one versed in more than one language gains respect in my home. There is no Race, color, creed or religion barriers here.

You have now shown me and the forum for you true conceited attitude. This is my last response to you. Need not reply as you are going on my ignore list. If you do not know what that means, it means that any post by you in the future will not show up on my computer. You can now insult me behind my back without fear of refute.

Ralph

[P-Motion]

Ralph,
oyu are a moron.
make fun of my spelling. I've had 2 head injuries and can still do math that stumps you.
Of course, if my American neighbor could see the road in front of him, he wouldn't have ran me over. Guess he had more money than sense.
And this type of engineering is outside of your field of expertise. It is a lot different than if I have a 2 foot deep channel with 5/8 rebar be a good enough footing for a wall ? I don't know but do know I'd ask you :)
It is a little different. It has more to do with physics and how gravity accelerates matter.
This has nothing to do if a rivet needs to be reinnforced with a weld or not. 2 different things.
It does seem that the engineering I've done does have somehting to do with a rotating mass. That and the math I have worked with.
You still haven't made a specific comment about it but have routinely said the idea can not work or I am stupid. Maybe it would help if you learn the difference betwen kinetic energy and potential kinetic. It might help.
Maybe you should take the time to let some teach you dynamic principles.

[P-Motion]

You are a joke Ralph. My dad is an immigrant.
How do I know you support exchange students ?
You've made fun of my English already.
Hmm, let me see, someone makes fun of how a person uses the English language is what ?
Of course, I could say it is because I have had 2 serious ehad injuries that have cost me over 5 years of my lfie in trying to figure out which way is up.
Not sure, is being ran over by an American mototrrist who says Iw as doing 50 but didn't watch the road a good excuse ?
You tell me since i have to prove to you.
And I think like Is aid, my math is still beyond yours and everybody in this forum.
I think I wills ay I am stupid because my dad is not an American or my math would be understood.
Okay ?
Or should I say I am retarded because of my head injuries caused by an American who does not watch where he drives ? Or ebcause an American can make fun of my spelling makes them appreciate soemoen who speaks more than one language ?
Goive me a clue. Russian is my 4th language and you say I'm stupid.
Could be I just live in teh wrong country.

Jim from Washington,

you wrote;

FYI, English is my 2nd language and my dad's 4th. He's one of those immigrants you don't like. Working in a factory let's me hear what Americans think about foreigners.

Talk about assumptions and making inflammatory remarks, you just step over the barrier. You do not seem to realize that you are talking to a foreign exchange student foster parent.

I have had a house full of students from Turkey, Uzbekistan, Romania, Germany, Thailand, and three other Baltic countries. So do not tell me or anyone I associate with that I do not like foreigners.

Any one versed in more than one language gains respect in my home. There is no Race, color, creed or religion barriers here.

You have now shown me and the forum for you true conceited attitude. This is my last response to you. Need not reply as you are going on my ignore list. If you do not know what that means, it means that any post by you in the future will not show up on my computer. You can now insult me behind my back without fear of refute.

Ralph

[P-Motion]

Ralph,
to let you know, that is some of the reasons why I've had so much time to study the ebhavior and apply the math to engineering standards.
That si a positive and something productive.
What you think of foreigners is something I could care less about. Really.
But life in America is not always that good regadless of what you think.
But when push comes to shove, I will stand by my math. And ina world of over 7 billion people, not one person ahs shown me where I have made a mistake.
If that is all I have, then it is one against the world. Anfd you know something, the one always wins.
ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!