@Dwylbtzle,
I guess fortunately for me that wheels are round.
Since the wheel will rotate as a lever drops while pumping, the next pump will be primed and will have rotated into position so it would start pumping and so on and so on.
edited to add; what might be difficult to get used to is that when the water is pumped, it will stay in about the same place.
What happens is the wheel rotates around it.
Basic Pm Idea
Moderator: scott
re: Basic Pm Idea
"direct pressure--best thing for that"
- (hunter s. thompson, after he threw a grapefruit into someone's face
or a bathtub or something)
it'll do it once
so MAYBE it primes itself--but it won't pump itself again
you shot yer bolt
once
and if the water stays in the same place that's because of the equal and
opposite reaction i spoke of
--(because to push on something--and make all the force move it forward--you have to be bracing on something--what are you bracing on?--a free hanging wheel!-so half the force goes the other way)
you have nothing left to do any "work"
now you have to reset something
because UNfortunately wheels are round
yer fighting gravity in order to utilize the same gravity
yeah you cocked the gun but if you pull that trigger you gotta cock it again
you don't get a magic infinite everlasting eternal cock that goes on and on forever just because you pulled it once,
(alas for us all, that none of us do, that's a very bitter pill)
and if you cock it twice as hard or pull the trigger twice as hard
the bullet won't go any farther
it has one charge
and then the gun hasta be re-loaded
yes--i see you have an automatic, there-
but, if it's an auto-loader then you need a new charge, (brought in from a belt or a magazine from outside the system), every time you want another bang
'cause it'll take a bang per flip to keep the wheel flipping around
you want a machine gun that shoots one bullet with powder in it:
the first one
and then it shoots bullets forever that have no powder in them
in essence: that first bang is gonna fling bullets forever, is what you propose--and all because it re-chambers itself?
yeah-it does----once
then there better be MORE powder in that next cartridge
you have to wail on the pump with yer arm again
it ain't gonna wail on itself
let alone forever
if there was a pump with an arm coming out of it, pumping itself, i woulda shot it by now
**************
wait...
now, are we talking kosher water, or did you personally piss in it?
if so, all bets are off, and you may be correct, after all
(who knows how energetic those recreational industrial toxins are)
have not yet UTTERLY plumbed the depths of evil...
so, if murilo teaches you how to chant up a damn voodoo leverager
all bets are off, too
it might work but it'll be the devil
- (hunter s. thompson, after he threw a grapefruit into someone's face
or a bathtub or something)
it'll do it once
so MAYBE it primes itself--but it won't pump itself again
you shot yer bolt
once
and if the water stays in the same place that's because of the equal and
opposite reaction i spoke of
--(because to push on something--and make all the force move it forward--you have to be bracing on something--what are you bracing on?--a free hanging wheel!-so half the force goes the other way)
you have nothing left to do any "work"
now you have to reset something
because UNfortunately wheels are round
yer fighting gravity in order to utilize the same gravity
yeah you cocked the gun but if you pull that trigger you gotta cock it again
you don't get a magic infinite everlasting eternal cock that goes on and on forever just because you pulled it once,
(alas for us all, that none of us do, that's a very bitter pill)
and if you cock it twice as hard or pull the trigger twice as hard
the bullet won't go any farther
it has one charge
and then the gun hasta be re-loaded
yes--i see you have an automatic, there-
but, if it's an auto-loader then you need a new charge, (brought in from a belt or a magazine from outside the system), every time you want another bang
'cause it'll take a bang per flip to keep the wheel flipping around
you want a machine gun that shoots one bullet with powder in it:
the first one
and then it shoots bullets forever that have no powder in them
in essence: that first bang is gonna fling bullets forever, is what you propose--and all because it re-chambers itself?
yeah-it does----once
then there better be MORE powder in that next cartridge
you have to wail on the pump with yer arm again
it ain't gonna wail on itself
let alone forever
if there was a pump with an arm coming out of it, pumping itself, i woulda shot it by now
**************
wait...
now, are we talking kosher water, or did you personally piss in it?
if so, all bets are off, and you may be correct, after all
(who knows how energetic those recreational industrial toxins are)
and i only been handlin God fearin' simple machines...murilo wrote:Oh, no!!! Leverage!!!
Please, not again!
Smith, against leverage I recommend the use of a good trustful amulet or even some voodoo!
Taaaaake caaaaaare... 8(
M
have not yet UTTERLY plumbed the depths of evil...
so, if murilo teaches you how to chant up a damn voodoo leverager
all bets are off, too
it might work but it'll be the devil
Dwylbtzle,
Are you on something ?
I think it odd that you would say that if what I know is correct then it would be the devil.
And yet Bessler was a religious man who may have been a Freemason.
And all you have are incoherent rants and the "devil".
I think you're in the wrong place.
@All,
To try and stay on topic, while leveraged force will allow for 4 times the work to be done by the formula w = md, twice the weight would mean an equal opposing force.
Still, with the pump am building, will be trying 1 1/2 and twice the weight.
It's all a part of non destructive testing.
edited to add; while it might be possible that someone else tried something like this, I think once everyone sees that it is something that can work, then it will be easier to explain it's limitations.
Are you on something ?
I think it odd that you would say that if what I know is correct then it would be the devil.
And yet Bessler was a religious man who may have been a Freemason.
And all you have are incoherent rants and the "devil".
I think you're in the wrong place.
@All,
To try and stay on topic, while leveraged force will allow for 4 times the work to be done by the formula w = md, twice the weight would mean an equal opposing force.
Still, with the pump am building, will be trying 1 1/2 and twice the weight.
It's all a part of non destructive testing.
edited to add; while it might be possible that someone else tried something like this, I think once everyone sees that it is something that can work, then it will be easier to explain it's limitations.
re: Basic Pm Idea
@All,
I've made a drawing of what I'm doing. Combined with a picture of where I'm at now, it'll give you guys an idea of what I'm doing.
The long and short levers while they maintain a fixed position to each other would be like the flail that Bessler mentioned.
And the short lever that I've labeled as a thresher is because it serves a similar purpose. As the flail rotates, it moves the thresher down causing it to perform work. In the drawing, it is moving horizontal. What this does is replace the need to have rollers to eliminate friction between 2 points that do not maintain a fixed relationship to each other.
In an actual mill, a thresher would be lifted up and then dropped as the pin lifting it would slip out of it's notch allowing the thresher to drop and perform it's work.
And what should happen is that the weight at the end of the long lever should drop 6 inches (15 cm's) while the pump closes 3/4's of an inch (about 1.8 cm's) while the water is pumped upwards 24 inches (60 cm's).
There is one trick to this though and that is the long lever needs to be as long as the section of pump it is working on. This has to do with torque and does need to be accounted for. If the long lever were 1/2 it's length, then it would require twice the weight to pump the same volume of water.
edited to add; initial testing when complete will have water being pumped from 0 - 24 inches (60 cm's) of vertical height to 24 - 48 inches (60 - 120 cm's)of vertical height. And when this happens, it will have been "hoisted" 24 inches (60 cm's) and be in the same position that it started from.
I've made a drawing of what I'm doing. Combined with a picture of where I'm at now, it'll give you guys an idea of what I'm doing.
The long and short levers while they maintain a fixed position to each other would be like the flail that Bessler mentioned.
And the short lever that I've labeled as a thresher is because it serves a similar purpose. As the flail rotates, it moves the thresher down causing it to perform work. In the drawing, it is moving horizontal. What this does is replace the need to have rollers to eliminate friction between 2 points that do not maintain a fixed relationship to each other.
In an actual mill, a thresher would be lifted up and then dropped as the pin lifting it would slip out of it's notch allowing the thresher to drop and perform it's work.
And what should happen is that the weight at the end of the long lever should drop 6 inches (15 cm's) while the pump closes 3/4's of an inch (about 1.8 cm's) while the water is pumped upwards 24 inches (60 cm's).
There is one trick to this though and that is the long lever needs to be as long as the section of pump it is working on. This has to do with torque and does need to be accounted for. If the long lever were 1/2 it's length, then it would require twice the weight to pump the same volume of water.
edited to add; initial testing when complete will have water being pumped from 0 - 24 inches (60 cm's) of vertical height to 24 - 48 inches (60 - 120 cm's)of vertical height. And when this happens, it will have been "hoisted" 24 inches (60 cm's) and be in the same position that it started from.
- Attachments
-
-
re: Basic Pm Idea
probably will---so what?
yes--the longer and longer the lever (pump handle) the larger and larger
the weight you can lift with the smaller and smaller weight
(wait for it)....once
make a wheel and yer a made man--and i'll stand corrected
ya gotta pump (eternally with no further energy input)
AND while yer spinning
and yer gonna get spun
but--hey--they laughed at fulton
so
good luck
maybe i just can't see it
- just can't git the funny on this one
what a great thing to be wrong about
i'd take that
gladly
yes--the longer and longer the lever (pump handle) the larger and larger
the weight you can lift with the smaller and smaller weight
(wait for it)....once
make a wheel and yer a made man--and i'll stand corrected
ya gotta pump (eternally with no further energy input)
AND while yer spinning
and yer gonna get spun
but--hey--they laughed at fulton
so
good luck
maybe i just can't see it
- just can't git the funny on this one
what a great thing to be wrong about
i'd take that
gladly
Last edited by Dwylbtzle on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
huh?smith66 wrote: I think it odd that you would say that if what I know is correct then it would be the devil.
i made a joke saying that if murillo chanted you up a VOODOO LEVERAGER
it might work but it'd be the devil
joke
you gotta git the funny
but don't worry--even the devil, while real, couldn't make that
even he has his limitations
because it doesn't exist and he can't create a blade of grass
let alone that
i think newton's laws forbid it
and it would take a miracle from God to over-rule him
(which-sure--absolutely COULD happen--so pray real hard if you intend to
make a wheel after you go ahead and prove a large weight can be lifted
by a smaller one) [with a pump lever, once]
because yeah THAT most certainly CAN be done --but doesn't prove you can make a wheel from it
you seem to be convinced that it does--but it doesn't
gee--wonder how come i somehow get the sneaking suspicion that yer
gonna demonstrate that you can lift a large weight with a small one
[with a pump lever, once]
and then crow loudly that you've proven yer wheel idea...
nay--that doesn't prove that
it proves pumps work--once--every time you pump them
not that they can pump themselves, forever with no energy input, from inside a free standing wheel
re: Basic Pm Idea
sorry if you came to a forum where people might say "i don't think that'll work--and here are the reasons why:..."
and you don't happen to find that amusing
i'm sure no-one would or does
but there it is
sorry
hey--don't be so sensitive
who the heck says i'm right, anyway? huh?
in fact
i admit MY idea works on magic, too (string theory)
i just admit it's magic
but, c'mon now
fess up: look at the title of yer thread...does it say basic PUMP idea, or basic PM idea?
you HAD planned to say that if yer pump pumps more weight than
the weight on the impeller ...(water in tube with weight on it--yer pump handle in other words), some distance (proving that levers increase lift--thanks)
then you WERE gonna say that THAT proves you could make it into a wheel
that was clearly your line of thinking there
people keep saying it won't make a wheel...
and you keep saying : "by God! i'm gonna prove this pump will lift a larger weight with a smaller one
some distance--why do you guys have a problem with that?"
like that's the end of the discussion or something
when it isn't
hey-any hardscrabble poor bastard subsistance farmer who has to work crappy hilly land
will tell you that he thinks that by dropping a stream into a
large pipe-
-then you can get water to go up a skinny pipe
and go way up to the top of a ridge to water his crops up there
because he does it every day
with two pipes--a fat short one and a long skinny one
as i said: i agree with THAT
yes- you can do THAT
but not make a wheel from it
(in my gumball opinion--i always add that)
what's my motto?:
"unless i'm wildly incorrect--which would cause ne deaths from shock"
and you don't happen to find that amusing
i'm sure no-one would or does
but there it is
sorry
hey--don't be so sensitive
who the heck says i'm right, anyway? huh?
in fact
i admit MY idea works on magic, too (string theory)
i just admit it's magic
but, c'mon now
fess up: look at the title of yer thread...does it say basic PUMP idea, or basic PM idea?
you HAD planned to say that if yer pump pumps more weight than
the weight on the impeller ...(water in tube with weight on it--yer pump handle in other words), some distance (proving that levers increase lift--thanks)
then you WERE gonna say that THAT proves you could make it into a wheel
that was clearly your line of thinking there
people keep saying it won't make a wheel...
and you keep saying : "by God! i'm gonna prove this pump will lift a larger weight with a smaller one
some distance--why do you guys have a problem with that?"
like that's the end of the discussion or something
when it isn't
hey-any hardscrabble poor bastard subsistance farmer who has to work crappy hilly land
will tell you that he thinks that by dropping a stream into a
large pipe-
-then you can get water to go up a skinny pipe
and go way up to the top of a ridge to water his crops up there
because he does it every day
with two pipes--a fat short one and a long skinny one
as i said: i agree with THAT
yes- you can do THAT
but not make a wheel from it
(in my gumball opinion--i always add that)
what's my motto?:
"unless i'm wildly incorrect--which would cause ne deaths from shock"
Last edited by Dwylbtzle on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
re: Basic Pm Idea
@All,
I have put Dwylbtzle on ignore.
As to bessler and his wheels, there is this that I found. Of course, in this forum :-)
Pulleys/Pulls
1. “If I arrange to have just one cross-bar in my machine, it revolves very slowly, just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, but, on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys [Züge] and weights, the machine can revolve much faster." AP 340 Collins
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... p?p=100316
And of course, you know I am going to say MT 125. With only 2 weights, pumping across the center is a simple way to do it to find out that it works. With more pulleys and weights, you go around the outside because >> A wheel appears - is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim. <<
Back to Mt 125 and the 2 weights. With what I am working on, it would demonstrate how an 8:1 leverage can work outside of normal applications. As such, if 2 weights work together like in Mt 125 then the force acting on the lower bellow would be at a 16:1 ratio.
And in establishing Bessler's credibility, I think starting with one of his clues that states it worked with 2 weights and showing a drawing also with 2 weights would be a good start.
By the way, the water in the tube between top and bottom counter balances itself. And with the cross bar I built for doing acceleration tests, it'd give an idea of what could be expected from carrying so much "dead" weight, i.e.., how much water would be needed to be pumped (how much excess or over balance) for it to have a chance at working.
edited to add; a link to a test I did with 2 counter balanced 1 lb. (450 gram)weights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmH9VWRaUC8
With a 2 weighted water wheel, timing and balance would be important but is doable.
edited to add, now we can discuss Bessler's work :-)
I have put Dwylbtzle on ignore.
As to bessler and his wheels, there is this that I found. Of course, in this forum :-)
Pulleys/Pulls
1. “If I arrange to have just one cross-bar in my machine, it revolves very slowly, just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, but, on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys [Züge] and weights, the machine can revolve much faster." AP 340 Collins
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... p?p=100316
And of course, you know I am going to say MT 125. With only 2 weights, pumping across the center is a simple way to do it to find out that it works. With more pulleys and weights, you go around the outside because >> A wheel appears - is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim. <<
Back to Mt 125 and the 2 weights. With what I am working on, it would demonstrate how an 8:1 leverage can work outside of normal applications. As such, if 2 weights work together like in Mt 125 then the force acting on the lower bellow would be at a 16:1 ratio.
And in establishing Bessler's credibility, I think starting with one of his clues that states it worked with 2 weights and showing a drawing also with 2 weights would be a good start.
By the way, the water in the tube between top and bottom counter balances itself. And with the cross bar I built for doing acceleration tests, it'd give an idea of what could be expected from carrying so much "dead" weight, i.e.., how much water would be needed to be pumped (how much excess or over balance) for it to have a chance at working.
edited to add; a link to a test I did with 2 counter balanced 1 lb. (450 gram)weights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmH9VWRaUC8
With a 2 weighted water wheel, timing and balance would be important but is doable.
edited to add, now we can discuss Bessler's work :-)
- Attachments
-
Last edited by smith66 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
re: Basic Pm Idea
yawn--shoot the messenger and post another inscrutable diagram
and, gee, don't know why the frick i posted it....
'cause ya better nobody disagree dammit or i won't be amused
lol
the sting of any (disagreement with one's magic wheel, i guess) is the truth
science (theory that can't be wrong) marches on
and, gee, don't know why the frick i posted it....
'cause ya better nobody disagree dammit or i won't be amused
lol
the sting of any (disagreement with one's magic wheel, i guess) is the truth
science (theory that can't be wrong) marches on
re: Basic Pm Idea
Dwylbtzle,
Dud, you're no different than ab hammer. I could care less about your opinion which is you don't have one. You have nothing better to do than bother people.
I just had surgery and may need more yet you want to waste my time with your "it's impossible, I know because I'm smart" trip.
You should get a life because I really have no need to post in here if it's going to be Alan all over again.
Of course, it's up to everyone else to decide.
after all, look at your post, all you can talk about is yourself.
back to ignoring you :-)
Dud, you're no different than ab hammer. I could care less about your opinion which is you don't have one. You have nothing better to do than bother people.
I just had surgery and may need more yet you want to waste my time with your "it's impossible, I know because I'm smart" trip.
You should get a life because I really have no need to post in here if it's going to be Alan all over again.
Of course, it's up to everyone else to decide.
after all, look at your post, all you can talk about is yourself.
back to ignoring you :-)
re: Basic Pm Idea
i was talking about YOUR theory
wot, you thought i was a ridge farmer?--naw--i just know some
but ok
i'll talk about you:
right
get all upset when someone challenges your "science"
spew insults
and then pop into ignore
an then pop back in and spew another insult
and then pop out again
admirably and intellectually brave
and then this?:
Inbox :: Message
From: smith66
To: Dwylbtzle
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:08 pm
Subject: Contact List System Message
smith66 has added you to his or her Buddy List. To manage your Contact List, please click here. This is an automated message sent by the forum software; you do not need to reply to this message.
buddies!
mi amigo!
lol
hey--sorry if i upset you
hope your surgery recovery goes all well
hell--you shouldn't even give out details in here, anyway
seriously--you could get ripped off, bro
what if you were right and i was wrong but people saw us arguing about it in here
and believed you (the putzs!--that would not amuse me!)
and THEY were right (oh shit!--now i'd really be pissed!)
and ripped you off?
then maybe you have to fight them in court
I would testify for you
i'd say: "hey--i didn't believe it, but he was right--and he thought of it first, judge!"
*************************
hey-a scientist has to be able to be wrong
else he's into metaphysics
not that yer wrong, necessarily--just that you have to be ready to be
maybe I'M wrong
a scientist thinks he sees something-goes into his lab
and finds out he was wrong
a metaphysician doesn't have a lab
happens all the time or yer not looking enough
edison tested 1000 things before he found his filament
hell-i've been used to being wrong since the '99 build i did-
-which i tell about in that thread about it out there:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5715
i thought i was gonna be the greatest scientist and benefactor of mankind that ever walked the earth
from big bang to entropy
i could SEE it
and the artistry wheel bit me
but at least i never tried to waste any more time building them THAT way
so it was actually great!
wot, you thought i was a ridge farmer?--naw--i just know some
but ok
i'll talk about you:
right
get all upset when someone challenges your "science"
spew insults
and then pop into ignore
an then pop back in and spew another insult
and then pop out again
admirably and intellectually brave
and then this?:
Inbox :: Message
From: smith66
To: Dwylbtzle
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:08 pm
Subject: Contact List System Message
smith66 has added you to his or her Buddy List. To manage your Contact List, please click here. This is an automated message sent by the forum software; you do not need to reply to this message.
buddies!
mi amigo!
lol
hey--sorry if i upset you
hope your surgery recovery goes all well
hell--you shouldn't even give out details in here, anyway
seriously--you could get ripped off, bro
what if you were right and i was wrong but people saw us arguing about it in here
and believed you (the putzs!--that would not amuse me!)
and THEY were right (oh shit!--now i'd really be pissed!)
and ripped you off?
then maybe you have to fight them in court
I would testify for you
i'd say: "hey--i didn't believe it, but he was right--and he thought of it first, judge!"
*************************
hey-a scientist has to be able to be wrong
else he's into metaphysics
not that yer wrong, necessarily--just that you have to be ready to be
maybe I'M wrong
a scientist thinks he sees something-goes into his lab
and finds out he was wrong
a metaphysician doesn't have a lab
happens all the time or yer not looking enough
edison tested 1000 things before he found his filament
hell-i've been used to being wrong since the '99 build i did-
-which i tell about in that thread about it out there:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5715
i thought i was gonna be the greatest scientist and benefactor of mankind that ever walked the earth
from big bang to entropy
i could SEE it
and the artistry wheel bit me
but at least i never tried to waste any more time building them THAT way
so it was actually great!
Last edited by Dwylbtzle on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
re: Basic Pm Idea
It's not. John had to find a good home for it after he spilled a bottle of Umlauts on it whilst using it as a coaster. :-)smith66 wrote:And of course, the picture is the property of John Collins :-)
smith66 wrote:Dwylbtzle,
Are you on something ?
@All,
To try and stay on topic,
Just look at that hang-dog expression. He's learned his lesson.Dwyshizzle wrote:hey--sorry if i upset you
James, I'd like to hear more about why you find MT125 so fascinating. You might have said, but I've likely missed it. Thanks.
re: Basic Pm Idea
yes i have sirs
i will never touch those recreational industrial toxins again!
(it's hard with frikkin homer HANDING them to you on a plate all the time, though)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/ ... -015-6.jpg
(that's sucrose, i think--or gooey corn syrup lozenges of some sort)
"i git's the HORRORS jim
(when i don't gits me rum)
the HORRORS!"
i will never touch those recreational industrial toxins again!
(it's hard with frikkin homer HANDING them to you on a plate all the time, though)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/ ... -015-6.jpg
(that's sucrose, i think--or gooey corn syrup lozenges of some sort)
"i git's the HORRORS jim
(when i don't gits me rum)
the HORRORS!"
re: Basic Pm Idea
Ed,
If you have a tube 50 cm's long that holds 1,000 cubic centimeters, the for every centimeter the water in the tube moves, then 20 cubic centimeters of water will have transfered it's potential a distance of 50 centimeters.
And if tbe water in the tube moves 10 centimeters, then 200 cubic centimeters would have transfered it's force 50 centimeters.
And with 200 cubic centimeters, that's about 6 ounces.
Still, with the pump I'm working on, it is similar to a few of Bessler's drawings.
ediet
Ed, if a bellow on Mt 125 was 10 x 15 cm's and had 250 cc's of water in it, the bellows would only need to close 2 cm's to move it's 250 cc's to the other side of the wheel.
That's about 9 oz.s, over twice the weight I used to test my cross bar with.
If you have a tube 50 cm's long that holds 1,000 cubic centimeters, the for every centimeter the water in the tube moves, then 20 cubic centimeters of water will have transfered it's potential a distance of 50 centimeters.
And if tbe water in the tube moves 10 centimeters, then 200 cubic centimeters would have transfered it's force 50 centimeters.
And with 200 cubic centimeters, that's about 6 ounces.
Still, with the pump I'm working on, it is similar to a few of Bessler's drawings.
ediet
Ed, if a bellow on Mt 125 was 10 x 15 cm's and had 250 cc's of water in it, the bellows would only need to close 2 cm's to move it's 250 cc's to the other side of the wheel.
That's about 9 oz.s, over twice the weight I used to test my cross bar with.
Last edited by smith66 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.