Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
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rasselasss
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re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
Peterborough Cathedral Windlass,near 1000 years old ,still in situ...10 foot dia. wheel x i foot dia. axle which gives a ratio of 10 to 1,...ie....a 12 stone man could lift 3/4 of a ton easily 100 feet in 10-15 minutes...the ring groove in the left of the image on the axle is for an "anchor"ring for the block and tackle,the other end of the rope .which doubles the lift ratio.,in theory he could now lift 1 and 1/2 tons in the same period of time over the same height.....(if he has the puff)....i suppose off-topic here but is relevant to discussion i'm having at the moment with others about different options for building block moving(pyramids) and "the hanging garden of babylon"methods of raising water and blocks by use of wheeled"sledges"containers,barrels or otherwise.....simple,effective and not labour intensive....maybe of use here,trying to understand Bessler's options ....Just a thought......to add...a link to another image of another one of the three in existence in England for those interested....
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Last edited by rasselasss on Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rasselasss
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re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
Circle of Fifth's and MT 137
Steve wrote:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_id
Steve wrote:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_idYou know, I have kind of seen these two as the inverse of one another. MT137 seems to be outward to me while the AP drawing appears to be inward. I've tried to manipulate the AP in the same manner that MT137 represents a "circle of fifths". Wasn't ever happy with any of the outcomes on that one. Yet, it still has the appearance that one is extending out and the other is moving in.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/downl ... er=user_id
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Furcurequs
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Steve,
I've not forgotten about you. My chronic pain just gets the best of me at times and it's been a rough couple of weeks. So, I still do plan on responding with a more detailed post. Unfortunately, though, I have lots of laundry and grocery shopping and other things to catch up on, too.
Anyway, so far I have tracked down some output power versus speed curves for some motors and engines that I plan to talk about and some graphs of power loss due to air drag shown as a function of speed. I've also done a couple of drawings based upon these things to show what I think could have been going on with Bessler's wheels during their load tests.
When I get it all sorted out, I'll post again.
Dwayne
I've not forgotten about you. My chronic pain just gets the best of me at times and it's been a rough couple of weeks. So, I still do plan on responding with a more detailed post. Unfortunately, though, I have lots of laundry and grocery shopping and other things to catch up on, too.
Anyway, so far I have tracked down some output power versus speed curves for some motors and engines that I plan to talk about and some graphs of power loss due to air drag shown as a function of speed. I've also done a couple of drawings based upon these things to show what I think could have been going on with Bessler's wheels during their load tests.
When I get it all sorted out, I'll post again.
Dwayne
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Furcurequs
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re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
Again, sorry for the delay. Here goes...
Some motors and engines can have a very steep drop off in power beyond certain operational speeds. This, of course, can be due to actual physical limitations of the devices themselves. In an engine, for instance, beyond a certain speed the fuel flow may no longer be able to keep up with the demand and/or perhaps the air flow becomes a problem.
With a DC electrical motor, beyond some speed the arcing of the brushes might become a major issue with there not being enough time for the arcing to quench itself perhaps - thus keeping open an electrical path that defeats the purpose of the commutator rings. Maybe with a synchronous electrical motor it just can't operate much beyond some designed operating speed that is a multiple of the frequency of its power supply.
...or maybe actual speed governors have been added to the devices to protect them from being run at dangerous speeds.
Anyway, in the following graphs you can see some example power curves for some motorcycle engines and some electrical motors.
http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoG ... mparro.jpg
http://www.tormach.com/uploads/images/c ... _speed.gif
In a couple you can see a rather smooth ramp up of the power in relation to the operating speed. If you get only so much energy per cycle, this certainly makes sense. The power in that region of the curve is approximately linearly proportional to the speed.
...but then you can also see over toward the right of the curves that there is the steep drop off in power once they get beyond some speed that is the limit of their normal operating range.
I've chosen these examples, but I've also seen graphs with even much steeper drop offs in power than these.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the prime movers in Bessler's wheels had similar power to speed curves as these, if not with even a steeper drop off in power, though also at much lower speeds, of course. If you get only so much energy per revolution of the wheel, the power output would essentially be linearly proportional to the speed until you reached a maximum beyond which the power, again, would drop off suddenly.
Now, let's consider air drag.
I've found the following graph showing the power required by a cyclist to combat air drag for a given speed. This power should be approximately a function of the speed cubed. Since Bessler's wheels were just spinning in the air instead of moving through and into the air, I suspect the curves would be shallower, but I'll go ahead and use these as an example, anyway.
http://users.frii.com/katana/bikesix.jpg
I've drawn some example power curves along with air drag curves using the sorts of shapes we've just seen. I've not put any numbers on the graphs so that we can think in qualitative terms instead of quantitative.
In this first hypothetical, I show where there is a steep drop off in power by the prime mover before air drag is a limiting factor for the wheel speed. You can see that if a load were then applied, just a very small decrease in speed of the wheel from its maximum unloaded operating speed would put it right at its maximum output power and so one wouldn't need to rely upon stored "flywheel" energy to lift the load.
In this second hypothetical, I show where air drag is the limiting factor for the wheel speed when the prime mover is still in what might be its "normal" operating range. Here we see that the wheel must indeed slow down a great deal to reduce the air drag so as to have available power to lift the load. In this scenario one might actually need to rely upon stored flywheel energy for a brief load test if the prime mover couldn't supply it at the decreased speed.
From all that I've read about Bessler's wheels and the eyewitness accounts, I would suspect, then, that the first hypothetical applies and that the maximum speed was mostly limited by some inherent mechanical constraint of the prime mover itself. Bessler might have possibly added a speed governor, too, but I doubt that was the case - or at least the truly limiting factor.
If the limit was somehow gravity related, I would suspect the upper speed was dependent upon the geometrical dimensions and the local acceleration due to gravity - something like how the frequency of oscillation of a simple pendulum is determined by only its length and the local acceleration due to gravity.
If it was some sort of "motion" device that didn't depend upon gravity, the speed limit might still be dependent upon the geometry but also possibly on spring constants and the actual amount of mass employed.
Anyway, if the first hypothetical is close to being correct - and to help in determining this being another reason why it would be nice to know the air drag of wheels the sizes of Bessler's - I suspect the load tests were genuine tests of the prime mover itself and and didn't rely upon stored flywheel energy. This would also seem to be in agreement with how easily the wheels got up to speed and how relatively easy they were to stop.
It would disagree, though, with Wagner's argument in that he spoke of relying upon rim mass for the short duration tests, and it would also seem to disagree with the thoughts of some other forum members.
I'm, of course, assuming that the operation of the prime mover is directly tied to the wheel rotation and there wasn't some sort of variable speed transmission employed (which, of course, would also seem to be the assumed case with pretty much every failed replication attempt I've ever seen, btw).
Dwayne
Some motors and engines can have a very steep drop off in power beyond certain operational speeds. This, of course, can be due to actual physical limitations of the devices themselves. In an engine, for instance, beyond a certain speed the fuel flow may no longer be able to keep up with the demand and/or perhaps the air flow becomes a problem.
With a DC electrical motor, beyond some speed the arcing of the brushes might become a major issue with there not being enough time for the arcing to quench itself perhaps - thus keeping open an electrical path that defeats the purpose of the commutator rings. Maybe with a synchronous electrical motor it just can't operate much beyond some designed operating speed that is a multiple of the frequency of its power supply.
...or maybe actual speed governors have been added to the devices to protect them from being run at dangerous speeds.
Anyway, in the following graphs you can see some example power curves for some motorcycle engines and some electrical motors.
http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoG ... mparro.jpg
http://www.tormach.com/uploads/images/c ... _speed.gif
In a couple you can see a rather smooth ramp up of the power in relation to the operating speed. If you get only so much energy per cycle, this certainly makes sense. The power in that region of the curve is approximately linearly proportional to the speed.
...but then you can also see over toward the right of the curves that there is the steep drop off in power once they get beyond some speed that is the limit of their normal operating range.
I've chosen these examples, but I've also seen graphs with even much steeper drop offs in power than these.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the prime movers in Bessler's wheels had similar power to speed curves as these, if not with even a steeper drop off in power, though also at much lower speeds, of course. If you get only so much energy per revolution of the wheel, the power output would essentially be linearly proportional to the speed until you reached a maximum beyond which the power, again, would drop off suddenly.
Now, let's consider air drag.
I've found the following graph showing the power required by a cyclist to combat air drag for a given speed. This power should be approximately a function of the speed cubed. Since Bessler's wheels were just spinning in the air instead of moving through and into the air, I suspect the curves would be shallower, but I'll go ahead and use these as an example, anyway.
http://users.frii.com/katana/bikesix.jpg
I've drawn some example power curves along with air drag curves using the sorts of shapes we've just seen. I've not put any numbers on the graphs so that we can think in qualitative terms instead of quantitative.
In this first hypothetical, I show where there is a steep drop off in power by the prime mover before air drag is a limiting factor for the wheel speed. You can see that if a load were then applied, just a very small decrease in speed of the wheel from its maximum unloaded operating speed would put it right at its maximum output power and so one wouldn't need to rely upon stored "flywheel" energy to lift the load.
In this second hypothetical, I show where air drag is the limiting factor for the wheel speed when the prime mover is still in what might be its "normal" operating range. Here we see that the wheel must indeed slow down a great deal to reduce the air drag so as to have available power to lift the load. In this scenario one might actually need to rely upon stored flywheel energy for a brief load test if the prime mover couldn't supply it at the decreased speed.
From all that I've read about Bessler's wheels and the eyewitness accounts, I would suspect, then, that the first hypothetical applies and that the maximum speed was mostly limited by some inherent mechanical constraint of the prime mover itself. Bessler might have possibly added a speed governor, too, but I doubt that was the case - or at least the truly limiting factor.
If the limit was somehow gravity related, I would suspect the upper speed was dependent upon the geometrical dimensions and the local acceleration due to gravity - something like how the frequency of oscillation of a simple pendulum is determined by only its length and the local acceleration due to gravity.
If it was some sort of "motion" device that didn't depend upon gravity, the speed limit might still be dependent upon the geometry but also possibly on spring constants and the actual amount of mass employed.
Anyway, if the first hypothetical is close to being correct - and to help in determining this being another reason why it would be nice to know the air drag of wheels the sizes of Bessler's - I suspect the load tests were genuine tests of the prime mover itself and and didn't rely upon stored flywheel energy. This would also seem to be in agreement with how easily the wheels got up to speed and how relatively easy they were to stop.
It would disagree, though, with Wagner's argument in that he spoke of relying upon rim mass for the short duration tests, and it would also seem to disagree with the thoughts of some other forum members.
I'm, of course, assuming that the operation of the prime mover is directly tied to the wheel rotation and there wasn't some sort of variable speed transmission employed (which, of course, would also seem to be the assumed case with pretty much every failed replication attempt I've ever seen, btw).
Dwayne
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Furcurequs
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bluesgtr44 wrote:That response from Bill was mainly about my thinking that it took only about 1 minute to get up to 40 rpm's. I have been trying to get any admission as to how long it took the wheel to get up to maximum speed with no success at all. All I have seen is the number of rotations.Well, hopefully I at least have a grasp on some of the basics and maybe I can suggest a few ideas as to possible explanations for the descriptions of the behavior of the wheel, some of which I may personally feel are more likely than others, of course. I think I'm partly in agreement with what Bill had to say in this post:
Wagner did address that mention of maintaining the same speed when loaded in his critique.
It would be nice to know how long it took the wheels to get up to speed as well as what we already know of how many turns it took to do so, but I haven't seen that information anywhere either.
I believe Wagner was just saying there that it took 17 to 18 seconds for the wheel to rotate the 15 turns needed to complete the 10 to 12 ell lift of the 70 pounds. Sounds like the load was applied while the wheel was already turning at max speed, then.bluesgtr44 wrote:ETA: Where Wagner talks about the 17 seconds and such for the wheel make a full rotation, he's not starting from a dead stop so as to attach the rope to the axle. So, I don't know how to take his approach to this. It isn't making sense to me. If I'm not mistaken, his wheel didn't rotate near as fast as Besslers. I think that is in there somewhere.XIV.
Anyone who was simpleminded enough to believe that the wheel has a constant 70-pound superior force with which it raised a box of 70 pounds above the second-story window to a maximum height of 10 to 12 ells at the experiment --as one observes partly in the copper engraving and partly in reports elsewhere-- will be able to understand how such a wheel is possible. I too accomplish this end with a wheel of the same dimensions, made heavy by weights distributed over the periphery, and when it is in full swing it raises a 70-pound box 10 to 12 ells high without slowing the operation noticeably. When the wheel has raised the box 12 ells high, it has revolved only 15 times; because the diameter of the axle is 6 inches or 1/4 ell, it hoists more than 3/4 ell of rope with each revolution. Within this amount of time (which, if the wheel revolves almost once every second, measures some 17 or 18 seconds and thus slightly more than 1/4 minute) the movement of a wheel this size at this speed cannot change noticeably. {this may be in ref. to this...}{"The most noteworthy detail regarding this particular experiment was that the wheel, while under this considerable load, continued to rotate at exactly the same rate as when it was running "empty".}Consequently, one cannot prove the existence of a 70-pound perpetual superior force with this experiment. Now if the situation of the location permits no greater height, then Herr Orffyreus, who allows himself to be called a great, famous, experienced mathematician, is certainly not lacking in invention but knows of other things to apply, e.g. he might just take a piece of pipe some one and a half ells long and arrange the piston in such a way that 70 pounds of force are required to move it, and then hang it from the winch so that after a fourth or a half hour one will see a completely different effect.
Thanks for replying Dwayne and for stirring up a bit of interest again.
Steve
That would agree with his argument that it required mass at the rim to be able to do this.
It wouldn't make much sense for him to argue about having more mass at the rim if the wheel was started from a dead stop with the 70 pound load already attached. In that case the rim mass would have actually added to the load seen by the prime mover.
Dwayne
ETA: Somewhere here I calculated the average imbalance at the rim to lift the 70 pounds, and I believe it was less than 7 pounds, btw.
I don't believe in conspiracies!
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I prefer working alone.
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satanspawn
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Re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
rasselasss wrote:How could Bessler's wheel be a fraud,we have read many statements condemning his wheels and yet having examined many avenues, ie.a flat coil spring,winding/unwinding to do the work performed as witnessed in "the kassel wheel"...not possible without one side being grounded,a leaf spring in tension(longitudinal.. twisting/untwisting )hidden inside the fabricated axle,but likewise has to be grounded...so apart from hidden outside influence any ideas how he would fraudulantly achieve this...
notice how he never, not once, let someone look inside the wheel. That's because there was some kid in there! He was a David Copperfield of his time. A peddler, a magician, a huckster, fraudster, circus act....not who you think he was.
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re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
Karl looked inside the wheel. Proposition busted.satanspawn wrote:he never, not once, let someone look inside the wheel
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satanspawn
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re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
"Karl looked inside the wheel."
while it was running? what did he see? why does this site exist if "Karl" knows the answer?
while it was running? what did he see? why does this site exist if "Karl" knows the answer?
re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
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He would have to have been an awful thin kid !
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He would have to have been an awful thin kid !
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Have had the solution to Bessler's Wheel approximately monthly for over 30 years ! But next month is "The One" !
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satanspawn
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"Orffyreus commented that when the secret is revealed, he is afraid that people will complain that the idea is so simple it is not worth the asking price."
Yep that kid running around would be a bit hard to explain huh?
Bessler was the equivalent of today's Barnum & Bailey.
The only reason you know of him is because of his promotional and marketing ability.
You don't think I've read every word about him that you have? Think again.
His lasting legacy may very well be this website. Let's hope something good and free comes of it.
Yep that kid running around would be a bit hard to explain huh?
Bessler was the equivalent of today's Barnum & Bailey.
The only reason you know of him is because of his promotional and marketing ability.
You don't think I've read every word about him that you have? Think again.
His lasting legacy may very well be this website. Let's hope something good and free comes of it.
re: Bessler's Wheel a Fraud----How?
Yes.satanspawn wrote:while it was running?
He saw inside the wheel.satanspawn wrote:what did he see?
Because some people keep secrets until they die.satanspawn wrote:why does this site exist if "Karl" knows the answer?
The only reason I know of Bessler is because of his demonstrations. Talk is cheap.satanspawn wrote:The only reason you know of him is because of his promotional and marketing ability.