Can we all agree on one thing???

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jim_mich
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Re: re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by jim_mich »

ME wrote:Because: We want free energy.
Therefore: We look at Perpetual Motion (or the like)
Thus: We look at examples around; ie. Bessler.
Because: Current consensus (physics) sucks at Perpetual Motion.
Therefore: we need to cover more ground to find what we're looking for.
Thus: We agree to disagree as to how (we think) Bessler did it.
Because: We don't know.
Therefore: Nullius in verba.
Thus: An occasional "Whoosh".
Because: Some people search at the opposite of consensus.
Therefore: There's a reaction in terms of consensus.
Thus: People are not as free as wished or hoped.
...
(Back to square 1)
So very true.

But the bigger question is, if Bessler discovered a PM secret method, then why has no one re-discovered his secret? Could it be that most everyone is looking in the wrong place? If gravity PM wheels are impossible, as science tells us, and if we only seek gravity PM wheels, then seeking for eternity will never produce a gravity PM wheel.

Maybe you should go back and read what Bessler originally wrote about his wheels.

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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by sleepy »

We are literally in the golden age of communication,and yet there is so little real communication going on.I think most people on this forum believe Bessler did it.I also think that every member thinks they have the answer at some point or another.But out of the thousands of ideas that we have collectively come up with,we see only a handful each year.I understand that this is because of a general (and well-earned) distrust of the human race.So we all keep going around in circles,looking for others to give creedence to our ideas,without actually sharing our ideas.We are purposely vague,and we expect others to cheer us on,and when they don't,we have tantrums.We want everyone to say,"good for you,your idea is great,you have the secret,"but we don't actually want them to know the secret.We enjoy being the center of attention,even though that attention is for something we haven't yet accomplished.So very little REAL information is passed around.We have all probably run into the same dead ends,but we'll never know that.At this point,we are all wrong about our ideas.If your wheel is not running,you are wrong.Several of us are probably mirroring each others efforts right this second.And we will never know.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by John doe »

If I dropped a small but extremely valuable diamond ring somewhere in side of an full football stadium during a football match and had 10 friends with me who had never seen it. And we started RANDOMLY searching the entire stadium how do you think that would go??
A) we would quickly find it?
B) we would keep searching forever with patience and dedication.
C) everyone except me would eventually give up and assume I was lying or that someone already found it and kept it. And eventually I would give up too.
Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.
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Post by Mark »

Fcdriver wrote:I am greatly confused by the responses here? PPM is not In Question yes it's possible, it is not IF it is possible, it is how to produce excess power, and how much? Am in the understanding that NONE of you have produced a wheel that runs on its own? Can weights lifting and dropping cause PPM? YES! Are we not discussing how, Bessler got excess power, not If it worked, or ran? Isn't this whole forum about the amount of excess power? That he was able to lift out side weights producing work without stopping or slowing the wheel, isn't this the question, we have been trying to answer? PPM is NOT in question, it is how to produce excess power and how much?
Please define PPM.
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Re: re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by John doe »

sleepy wrote:We are literally in the golden age of communication,and yet there is so little real communication going on.I think most people on this forum believe Bessler did it.I also think that every member thinks they have the answer at some point or another.But out of the thousands of ideas that we have collectively come up with,we see only a handful each year.I understand that this is because of a general (and well-earned) distrust of the human race.So we all keep going around in circles,looking for others to give creedence to our ideas,without actually sharing our ideas.We are purposely vague,and we expect others to cheer us on,and when they don't,we have tantrums.We want everyone to say,"good for you,your idea is great,you have the secret,"but we don't actually want them to know the secret.We enjoy being the center of attention,even though that attention is for something we haven't yet accomplished.So very little REAL information is passed around.We have all probably run into the same dead ends,but we'll never know that.At this point,we are all wrong about our ideas.If your wheel is not running,you are wrong.Several of us are probably mirroring each others efforts right this second.And we will never know.
Very we'll put!
Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.
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Post by jim_mich »

I assumed that Fcdriver meant PerPetual Motion when he wrote that.

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Re: re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by Fletcher »

sleepy wrote:We are literally in the golden age of communication,and yet there is so little real communication going on.I think most people on this forum believe Bessler did it.I also think that every member thinks they have the answer at some point or another.But out of the thousands of ideas that we have collectively come up with,we see only a handful each year.I understand that this is because of a general (and well-earned) distrust of the human race.So we all keep going around in circles,looking for others to give creedence to our ideas,without actually sharing our ideas.We are purposely vague,and we expect others to cheer us on,and when they don't,we have tantrums.We want everyone to say,"good for you,your idea is great,you have the secret,"but we don't actually want them to know the secret.We enjoy being the center of attention,even though that attention is for something we haven't yet accomplished.So very little REAL information is passed around.We have all probably run into the same dead ends,but we'll never know that.At this point,we are all wrong about our ideas.If your wheel is not running,you are wrong.Several of us are probably mirroring each others efforts right this second.And we will never know.
Thank you sleepy.

That is the pattern we see over and over and over and over and ...

Even annoying children eventually grow up ! But not here apparently.
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Re: re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by Phaedrus »

sleepy wrote:We are literally in the golden age of communication,and yet there is so little real communication going on.I think most people on this forum believe Bessler did it.I also think that every member thinks they have the answer at some point or another.But out of the thousands of ideas that we have collectively come up with,we see only a handful each year.I understand that this is because of a general (and well-earned) distrust of the human race.So we all keep going around in circles,looking for others to give creedence to our ideas,without actually sharing our ideas.We are purposely vague,and we expect others to cheer us on,and when they don't,we have tantrums.We want everyone to say,"good for you,your idea is great,you have the secret,"but we don't actually want them to know the secret.We enjoy being the center of attention,even though that attention is for something we haven't yet accomplished.So very little REAL information is passed around.We have all probably run into the same dead ends,but we'll never know that.At this point,we are all wrong about our ideas.If your wheel is not running,you are wrong.Several of us are probably mirroring each others efforts right this second.And we will never know.
Yes, very well put! Here is my idea of what would solve this problem: The reason people don't want to reveal their ideas, is because they are afraid someone else will take the idea and claim it as their own, get credit for it and perhaps even profit from it. That is what the Patent system came about to address (or do I have that wrong). What someone needs to do (and I assume the way things are going, this will happen eventually) is to have a Patent system online. If you get an idea, you can go and record it online, associate your identity to it, have a date and time associated with it. Then no one can claim credit for your invention, and yet it will be out there for all to see. Then the development of new technologies could proceed much faster. Because as soon as someone thinks of an improvement, they can record it for all to see (and get credit) and then this can be built on, etc. Of course the problem is in the details. With our current Patent system, you usually want to do it using special people who know how to write patents and it has become all institutionalized, where certain kinds of patents are no longer allowed. What I would like to see is something more user-oriented. You go and put your idea online, and that's it. Trouble is, most people are going to just put a messy looking drawing and that isn't any good either. You would need to maintain certain standards. Oh well, just an idea. But just think, if such a system were to be created on the Internet, then immediately, everyone with an idea would be highly motivated to put their idea down, because they would be afraid someone else had their idea and would record it before they did. That is how our current Patent system works I think.

I just thought of something else. In order to maintain a consistency between patents, in order to make sure people wouldn't just record messy drawings, we could come up with some software that the submitters of these online patents would be required to use. The software would force you to make everything explicit and hopefully self-explanatory. For example, as with current patents (not that I know about patents at all, just going by what I have observed looking at them) you might have every part of the patent labeled with a number. Then you would have to explain what the purpose of each part was and how it related to other parts it was connected to. Anyway, by requiring this special software to submit your online patent, you could thus force some standards on them. But the drawback would be, the more complicated this software became, the more institutionalized would the online patent system become. People would find it harder and harder to learn to use the system, just like it is getting harder and harder to just get a regular patent for your idea.
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Re: re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by ME »

jim_mich wrote:Could it be that most everyone is looking in the wrong place?
I shortened up a too long and complex post, it basically comes down to this:

Human nature.
We tend to look outwards,
deny our own duality,
and try to blame the rest
for any mistake we make ourselves.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by Fletcher »

Some here in Alice's Wonderland openly share ideas in the hope of solving the puzzle of "how did Bessler do what he purportedly did ?". They put aside ego for the intellectual challenge and the potentially greater good to mankind, and I applaud them. They believe that many backs bending to the strain can move an immovable object, even if they are in the minority.

They investigate and openly discuss potential anomalies they feel might call into question the known laws of physics, or they put up for discussion plausible alternative theories within the frame work of known physics. Not all ideas are welcomed or palatable to all at this site. But their ideas are infinitely preferable and more interesting to me than the frothy filibustering tomes of many.

When an illustrated idea is posted up in an open forum format like this site it then has the legal status of 'Prior Art'.
Prior art is any evidence that your invention is already known. Prior art does not need to exist physically or be commercially available. It is enough that someone, somewhere, sometime previously has described or shown or made something that contains a use of technology that is very similar to your invention.
That means someone else can't patent your idea.
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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by jim_mich »

Fletcher wrote:That means someone else can't patent your idea.
It also means that you might not be able patent your own idea. In the USA, you have one year to file an application after you publicly disclose your idea. And you must be the actual inventor. If you can prove that someone stole your idea and tried to patent it, then you might prevail. Other countries require you to file before public disclosure. Thus, if you plan on patenting outside the USA, you need to file a patent application BEFORE disclosing your idea on the internet.

PS. This is the only reason that I have not shown my wheel design. And why I don't discuss why it works, other than in general terms, in other words a motion wheel.

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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by Gill Simo »

I do find the title somewhat misleading, John Dowe...`Can we all agree on any one thing???` would have been simpler to ask ....and guaranteed an answer.
I'm sure this thread will linger around the top of this forum for a long time.....an ever growing, ever louder NO in answer to the question correctly posed.
Your desire/intention is an admirable one of course...now wouldn't that be nice!
But with one impossibility already to overcome, you'd do well to avoid taking on another one me thinks?

JC..... You say...

"Some might say I'm being picky, but I do think that the term PM is doing us no favours."

You are being way too picky John......the fact that something wears out through use doesn't in any way exclude that something from being a PMM
Like....every machine wears out, of course...PM machines no exception?
The PM driving the machine doesn't wear out.

A weight, connected to an axle, able to rotate 361 degree from the 12 o'clock position would be a PMM...and built by todays standards & materials it would probably come with a lifetime guarantee.
I get this image of a defeated, old, JC.....tried so hard to see PM achieved in his lifetime.....and all he has to show for it is this damn near substitute that fricking well needs a service every 30 years.....so close!!

But more importantly you say....

"I take issue with the term PMM, as it has negative connotations as well as being inaccurate"
"Bessler's wheel was what was believed to be a perpetual motion machine"

Sorry but this is arse about face for me?

It is the term `Bessler's Wheel` that gives rise to negative connotations, as well as being inaccurate....& the term PMM being applied to it perfectly accurate.

Bessler's wheel was exactly that....a wheel like any other. We're not looking for Bessler's `wheel` even though the term has misled most into doing so, we are looking for what powered it.
And it's made very clear to us that what powered it was weight/s moving in accordance to some Principle of Perpetual Motion....a term that precious few are looking for....that equates to going around in a circle all the time to most.
We have a wheel, we have PM powering it & combined the whole is 100% a PMM.....that'll need servicing from time to time unfortunately.
You know....I'd guess that whatever the PM is, it's something that performs about an axle....no matter how abnormal a wheel, it'd always be a wheel as such.
But I'm sure Bessler would have been well able to design around this PM to present the viewer with two monkeys dancing on a seesaw should he have wished.
Lord, perish the thought!!..........`BesslerSeesaw.com`

"MAYDAY MAYDAY Ape alert!!!!!!!

"Hi all....Shit!! How I've missed it, how we've all missed it, God only knows!!??? It's so bloody simple, just like he said!!!
Can't say much for now, wanna do a wee build to check things out & pressed for time also....I'll just say look at the tail of the left monkey & the nose of the other...it's so damn obvious when you see it!!!!
Later....."

"Can't wait BindMender1...!!
Did a lot of research into the tails & noses some time back, though not your configuration...I'll dig out the thread, might be along the same line as you're heading. Found some interesting anomalies re CF, PF & F/ALL basically"



Gill
Last edited by Gill Simo on Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by agor95 »

Thank you Fletcher for your last post.

I agree to these statements, as being relevant to myself :-

They put aside ego for the intellectual challenge and the potentially greater good to mankind.

They investigate and openly discuss [cut] they put up for discussion plausible alternative theories within the frame work of known physics.

Not all ideas are welcomed or palatable to all at this site.

But their ideas are infinitely preferable .

I started to put each small part of my idea. So we could agree that each part was correct [agreeable]. However I need the permission from John.

As the idea has a status 'because it is irrelevant to this thread'.

I believe each small section can be agreed on in good faith.

The design after full agreement could have eight weights, two regulation pendulums outside and one inside. each with their reason for existence. Also were the energy come from to compensate for entropy loss.
Last edited by agor95 on Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by rlortie »

Prior art is any evidence that your invention is already known. Prior art does not need to exist physically or be commercially available. It is enough that someone, somewhere, sometime previously has described or shown or made something that contains a use of technology that is very similar to your invention.
Sorry but I firmly disagree with the above quote!

Has anyone explained this to Glenn R. Rouse, the man who lead a key role in bringing Bessler and the MT drawings for all to share?

Also the man that obtained a patent US 7,278,245 B2 Oct 9, 2007 based on drawing MT137. Citing reference including one page of woodcut print in series of 141 items from unpublished treatise on machines by Johann E. E. Bessler dated 1733.
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re: Can we all agree on one thing???

Post by agor95 »

Gill


"Hi all....Shit!! How I've missed it, how we've all missed it, God only knows!!??? It's so bloody simple, just like he said!!!

It is good you have seen what is in front of use all.
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