Wheel acceleration...

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

I also agree with you, in principle...however, I am interested in replicating Bessler's EXACT design, if possible, not just any old PM machine. Bessler states in Das Triumphans... that his wheels were contructed "according to the laws of mechanical perpetual motion...". So, I am trying to determine exactly what those "laws" are and exactly how he used them to build his wheels.

Of course, I am aware that this will be no easy task. My school day physics textbooks did not contain any chapter titled "The Laws of Mechanical Perpetual Motion". I wish they had, in which case this discussion board might not be here now! Since the existence of such laws seems to be real as demonstrated by Bessler's wheels, I have no doubt that they will eventually be uncovered and made known to the world.

For many researchers, that will be sufficient. They will go on their merry ways designing dozens of different gadgets to use the laws and pursuing patents for those gadgets. I, however, will not be content with this. I want to know, with a much probable accuracy as possible, how Bessler used the laws inside of his wheels. Perhaps I am a "Besslerian" in the purist sense of this new term.

Some of you reading this reply may think that my ultimate goal is futile, that we can never really know what Bessler's exact design was. I believe otherwise...I think once we know the laws, his mechanism will become obvious and all of the "clues" noted by those who examined his wheels and which may be included in his writings will suddenly "make sense".

ken

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Ken,
maybe this construction will help your mind. Accelerating to constant speed in 2-3 turns. And... started with a fingerpush.
Description you can find under Georg's ideas from the 7. August 2004.
Runner runs on segmented cylinders.

The selfnamed 'Experts' on this board already had proofed it wrong without seeing that we deal with a resonante oscillating system.



the future has begun

Georg

[Michael]

...I quite by accident stumbled onto the principle first (and was receptive enough to recognized it), then I had to figure out how to make a wheel that makes use of it.

That is exactly what I did though Jim, but it wasn't by accident. I was contemplating a design of mine and I realized the perpetual motion principle from that. I then had to concieve of the right parts to make it work. Now, I don't know if the perpetual motion principle I discovered is the same as yours. It would in no way suprise me if it was.

Mike

[bluesgtr44]

OK, am I letting a cat out of the bag? I believe in this situation, with a wheel...you have to create an eccentric inside of a concentric. Now, I do not find this to be a big secret. Am I off base here?

Steve

[rlortie]

steve,

Sorry but my instinctive humor will not let this one pass.

As Scott, the moderator of this board has implied. this forum is recognized by crank.net! So what do you consider "off base" here in your own thread? You as author chair this thread, as such it is your discretion to interpret what is off base, as you have so implied a few posts back. I refer to your remark "this thread is about acceleration".

Regards, and post what you wish, (within moderator tolerance) its your nickel.

Ralph

[bluesgtr44]

I am attempting to attach a lousy "paint" drawing to give some idea as to the type of set up I used to observe acceleration. The pendulum in the middle is not of the shape that I had...just couldn't figure out how to get "paint" to manipulate as well as the "reshape" function in WM2D does. Basically, you have to play with the shape of the pendulum to get the max out of it. Add weight to the bottom and at different spots to balance it where you need it....I spent a lot of time doing this! I created a clockwise rotation with this experiment.

I tilted the wheel slightly clockwise so that the two arms on the right side were already being pushed outward by the pendulum to provide a good starting torque. This slight tilt also allowed me to start the rotation "ideally" by tucking the arm in the lower left hand quadrant in towards the beam.

So, I have it set to go and hit "run"...it starts pretty quickly with a good clockwise rotation, because I stacked it in my favor to start. I was able to get between 2 and 3 rotations out of this by starting it this way. Now, this is what I noticed. It accelerated pretty quickly at the start and did pick up some momentum through the first revolution. Into the second it started to decay and the angular momentum from the lower left quadrant was increasing rather quickly. After the second revolution, the amount of force in that quadrant was so powerful...It actually stopped the wheel in less than half a turn and started rotating counter clockwise. Watching this frame-by-frame was pretty astonishing as to how "determined" the weights were to acheive the "perpetuum quietus" that JB refers to as quickly as possible. Gives one a bit of a notion as to why he may have reffered to the weights as "plump lazy horses".

This is what started this for me...watching that power in that quadrant!

OK, start the barrage...I'm ready for it! One can't learn anything if one can't take some good constructive criticism.

Steve

[Georg Künstler]

nice try, how do you break the symmetry left, to right ? Are the rollers touching the red eccentric curve ? Is the eccentric red courve fix or can it rotate too. Only simple question to understand what you had drawn.

the future has begun

Georg

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Georg...sorry, I didn't elaborate on that. Yes, the rollers roll along the pendulum in the middle. I had the counter weight on the bottom and the pendulum would swing only slightly. The pendulum would actually push the arms outward after finding the right kenetic tension for the springs. As I said, this is not anywhere near the shape of what I had drawn in WM2D for the pendulum, but I just wanted to give everyone an idea as to what I had done.

Georg, understand this is not my idea of a working wheel. I was looking at some of Besslers drawings and found this one (MT 19) interesting to use in my search for acceleration. I saw this as a design that I could manipulate for maximum start up torque to watch what was happening in all quadrants to acheive maximum rotation in 2 to 3 revolutions.

Another thing I forgot to mention...I offset the rollers. When coming up to the 12:00 position, the roller is hanging down from the offset. The slight curve I had at the first accension of the pendulum (at 12:00) was just enough that it would turn the roller up...which in turn would give me just that extra little nudge, from the offset roller wanting to come around...that was where I started the descent on the pendulum and gravity did the rest of the work. The angle of descent gradually increased until about the 4:00 position, where I started a hard, sharp turn inwards, and I stopped contact with the pendulum at about the 5:00 position.

For those who use WM2D or are familiar with it. I had no canstraints warnings when this started. Basically, I am not aware of any conflicts within this design...WM2D had me to believe that this is workable for what I was looking for. I did not have to get the program to make any exceptions for this to do what it did. Hope this helps a little more.

Please, let me emphasize this...This is not a design for a working wheel...I only used this to see what the acceleration rate would be. And man oh man...that is a lot of force in that lower left quadrant, in a very short period of time!

Steve

[jim_mich]

Steve, just a hint...

If you want to document a WM2D setup then press the 'Print Screen' key to capture the screen into Windows clipboard. Then you can paste it into an image editing program and turn it into a GIF or JPEG picture.

Just trying to be helpful.

[bluesgtr44]

JIM! Boy am I gald you looked at this...not that you are even interested...I'm just hoping. I am going to try that and see if I can get it to do that on my computer. I just upgraded computers this past month and am still trying to understand some of the latest and greatest I paid for. I will have to try to duplicate the drawing as I had done before, might be a little tough.

It's the theory of that force I am after, Jim. It astounded me to no end as to how "ferocious" it was. I also did an experiment with a ball bearing type design that had been mentioned on a thread here somewhere to provide a different type of set up all together...I wanted to see if this was true in any or most application...same thing! The force in that lower left quadrant after "X" amount of rev's was incredible! Those fat, lazy horses really do not want to spin constantly. They want to stop as soon as possible...and with a vengeance! This force needs to be acknowledged.

Steve

[bluesgtr44]

OK, here's some drawings to illustrate what I am talking about. Big thanks to Jim and Amatuer for showing me how to do this. These are not of the same design I sent earlier. All the better because no matter the design I have done, the effect is the same. Hope this provides something.

[ken_behrendt]

Your gadget is nice, but you need to bring up the graph of angular momentum for your constructions in the future. You can do this by clicking on 'Measure' on the overhead bar and then selecting 'angular momentum'. When that window pops up in the workspace, click the arrow in its upper lefthand corner and, as your design begins to rotate, it will automatically graph its angular momentum versus time. The curve on that graph is very important and will let you know exactly what your design is really doing as it turns. It's amplitude of the curve that is generated by you model's rotation is roughly proportionate to its rotation velocity. On a successful design that is rotating clockwise, you should see the curve stay below the horizontal angular momentum = zero line most of the time. That indicates that the design is maintaining its motion. If the curve keeps dropping down away from the horizontal ang. moment. = 0 line, then that's great...your design is accelerating!

As far as your design is concerned, a few complete rotations are only impressive IF the rolling weights are traveling through the same path during EACH rotation.

You can also see a marker that indicates the exact position of the c.g. of your design at any moment. However, to do it, you must first make the parts near the center transparent (i.e., no color). Then click 'View' and select 'System Center of Mass' on the drop down window. You'll see a little black and white contrast marker appear near the center of your creation. Obviously, in a successful design, that little marker will spend more time on the descending side of the wheel than the ascending side.

ken

[Gravmaster2000]

Nice design-maybe if the weights were NOT allowed to swing around so much-maybe put in a second wall on the other side of each weight to limit the movement?!

[bluesgtr44]

Thanks guys!

Ken...this is not a design for a working wheel. Only used this for watching the acceleration. I understand about the angular momentum chart, but didn't think it was needed in this case as the picture pretty much shows it all. My point here all along has been...what must be done to acheive maximum rotation in 2 to 3 turns. One thing that stands out from my experiments is there is a force in the lower left quadrant that has to be dealt with for that acceleration rate to be acheived. And what a force it is! Maybe, JB figured out how to eliminate this force or...he used it...Man, if you could find a way to give this force direction without expending more energy than the force down (vertically) on the right side of the wheel.

GraveM...I tried to put a curved polygon and angle so the weight would try to ride upwards and toward the center...the lower arm would hit it everytime and slow the motion.

Steve

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Steve,

when you monitor the board, than you can read that Bessler said that everyone will fail who likes to construct an overbalanced wheel.
Maybe i can not remember the right wording, but it is the sence.

He said swinging is the key. Oh no, i had it wrong in my mind. He said: the wheel gets it energy by its own swinging.

So I read it: swinging is the key.

Now we are in that point of physic. How can we get something to swing ?
Obviosly, because we have a turning wheel, we must have an oscillation system.

You detected, and that was very good from you, that the hit frequence in the wheel is very high, and can not be comeing from pendulums.

Only slow moving wheels can use this pendulums, like the one directional wheel from Bessler, this is permanently overweighted by swinging.

The faster wheel, with one turn in second must have a different inner construction.

What is with the impact on the downgoing side, which clearly could be heard. Maybe you find a solution on this board which gives you 8 impacts per turn.

the future has begun

Georg