WM 2d will only show pm if it’s told to violate some part of physics; I recall solid objects passing through each other is one such thing. I’m sure there are others.
So yes, sims can show pm. But they’re not real.
Energy is calculated as differences between two y coordinates. Unless some mysterious mushroom magical energy is added to the equation,
the energy of going from 12 o'clk to 6 = the energy of the return trip
That's one way to put it I guess, normally for our purposes we say from 12 to 6 the PE is all converted to KE.
Without any additional external (non-magical) energy the KE can't all be converted back to PE.
Any mechanism begins losing energy bit by bit the moment it's released at 12, so that by the time it gets to 6 it's not rotating as fast as it would in a vacuum with frictionless joints.
The internal energy has to get an external assist. It can't be done without it.
.
.
eccentrically1,
how do you think Bessler did it, if he really did. Did he use S-GAP (standard government accounting practices) working those energy equations? Was he tripping on acid?
What do you think?
Last edited by WaltzCee on Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I don't think it was "true pm". The wheels weren't powering themselves internally with their own mechanisms. He tells us they weren't wound up mechanisms, etcetera, that would have been fraud. The mechanisms were designed to transfer energy into the wheel from their environment once they reached their working speed (they could only be called "gravity" wheels for their initial acceleration).
The only form that energy could have taken that no one could have observed would have been heat.
I don't place any importance to the short lifts. That's why he ultimately had to conduct the 54 day test. The witnesses needed that to sign the statements.
But even that test wasn't done properly. The only load on it was axle friction and drag. There's no way we can know how much energy it took to turn the Kassel wheel unloaded, but my guess would be fractions of a joule.
You should appreciate this website:
eccentrically1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:54 pm
I don't think it was "true pm".
👍
I've recently been reading some history of PM, & around the 1800's, common people began reading about scientific findings & experimenting. It was a time of popular enlightenment and entertaining. PM was hotly debated then and now's not too different.
That study helped me define PM as it was understood then. They already discovered PM according to some. A wind mill is PM as long as nothing breaks and one has wind.
Now a GPGD wheel? Impossible! Even if it were possible, it would produce so little power as to be worthless. Total waste of human effort to consider the matter. A hobby for the unwashed masses.
My opinion, true PM doesn't need gravity. That's LSAM 3.0 .
eccentrically1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:54 pm
I don't think it was "true pm".
👍
I've recently been reading some history of PM, & around the 1800's, common people began reading about scientific findings & experimenting. It was a time of popular enlightenment and entertaining. PM was hotly debated then and now's not too different.
That study helped me define PM as it was understood then. They already discovered PM according to some. A wind mill is PM as long as nothing breaks and one has wind.
Now a GPGD wheel? Impossible! Even if it were possible, it would produce so little power as to be worthless. Total waste of human effort to consider the matter. A hobby for the unwashed masses.
My opinion, true PM doesn't need gravity. That's LSAM 3.0 .
PM might have been hotly debated then, but there’s no debate now, it’s only hotly debated on this forum.
A windmill is not PM. Anymore than a waterwheel.
True PM needs more than lsam 3.0.
Infinite energy needs infinity, imo.
What is infinity? We only have a symbol to represent it.
eccentrically1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:54 pm
I don't think it was "true pm".
👍
I've recently been reading some history of PM, & around the 1800's, common people began reading about scientific findings & experimenting. It was a time of popular enlightenment and entertaining. PM was hotly debated then and now's not too different.
That study helped me define PM as it was understood then. They already discovered PM according to some. A wind mill is PM as long as nothing breaks and one has wind.
Now a GPGD wheel? Impossible! Even if it were possible, it would produce so little power as to be worthless. Total waste of human effort to consider the matter. A hobby for the unwashed masses.
My opinion, true PM doesn't need gravity. That's LSAM 3.0 .
If this BS quest of PM is real, and Bessler did say something about swinging weights, then is it reasonable to conclude that pendulums tethered in a unique way is the motive power?
I can think of a standard clock pendulum - tick tocking all day long on a rigid pendulum arm. But then I can also think of a pendulum swinging from a cord. I can imagine how they swing differently depending on how they are attached, where they are attached, and how they will perform inverted.
But there isn't any pendulum anywhere on the planet that can keep itself going in a rotating environment regardless of how it's attached. We all know it and it's why we avoid pendulum-craft in our builds. Oh sure there is the occasional faith-healer than tries, but so far he can't figure out how to resurrect the pendulum off the bottom of the wheel.
WaltzCee, you are a genius, you've just given us the answer of how to make a PM machine. We have been approaching the problem from the wrong direction.
Obviously i can't give away the secret just like that, for nothing, because I'm a greedy, self centred, attention seeking bastard too. But i can give you some clues.
If you make a vaccine that isn't actually a vaccine, how do you go about making it a vaccine without modifying the product?
How can you make a sequences of processes change from being gain of function to not being gain of function, without changing a single process?
Any lying cheating scoundrel who is good enough to answer these questions, will be able find the solution to PM.
I've already got 14 runners.
Ummmm I went back and read his posts and I don't see where he revealed anything of substance to the point you could go right out and build it. As close as it gets is talk of windmills and GPGD.
That being said, as long as the wheel doesn't stop and we don't predefine what stop means or the time frame within, then I would suppose if I set a penny on well balanced disk every few hours, then the wheel wouldn't have stopped if we average it out over a certain period of time. Maybe play pin the pendulum on the wheel and then giggle like a school girl when I'm blindfolded and miss the wheel entirely. There is a form of perpetuity in that I guess...somehow...
I'll be right back...talk is cheap and I have some perpetuum mobile pamphlets to print up to hand out at the community players venue this week.
Last edited by JUBAT on Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eccentrically1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:08 pm
Some also considered cox’s clock perpetual motion, but it wasn’t either.
Depends on the definition, eccentrically1. If a GPGD wheel were made today by Dirk's definition, it wouldn't be considered perpetual motion.
By the definition I got from Dirk's writings, a perpetual motion machine is 100% self contained. A gravity wheel wouldn't fit the meaning.
There were a lot of experts in Dirk's day too. Like today, they usually disagreed. Also, like today, none have anything that works.
A gravity driven wheel runs down because it doesn't fit the meaning. It isn't self contained. That's why they aren't PM. If they could be built as self contained structures and set in motion, they would be PM, but they wouldn't be OU. You couldn't access their self contained structure.
A windmill is an open system for that matter, but it isn't PM.
Anything in our earth and sun system is powered by the sun.
