So.
Today I got tired of waiting for building materials and I hacked a quick setup to get some data out using my oscilloscope. The setup is very crude and has lots of friction, but should be enough to get useful data from.
Below I attached the setup and gathered data. It's looking pretty grim. I have used at least 10x less weight to stop the wheel yet no energy gain. Even considering the horrible friction it has, the 10x energy gain was not even remotely close.
I'm still planning on on making a professional with much more data.
energy producing experiments
Moderator: scott
re: energy producing experiments
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re: energy producing experiments
Broli: I assume your center disk is on a bearing but what surface does your smaller puck move on?
In my original experiments I used rotating arms to drop the cylinder and spheres. The arms kept rotating after the drop was made. After viewing the video tapes I made two entries in my note book saying that the spheres moved ahead of the arms. This means that the rotational speed of the spheres was greater than the original rate of rotation.
In my original experiments I used rotating arms to drop the cylinder and spheres. The arms kept rotating after the drop was made. After viewing the video tapes I made two entries in my note book saying that the spheres moved ahead of the arms. This means that the rotational speed of the spheres was greater than the original rate of rotation.
re: energy producing experiments
This is a fairly safe way to throw steel spheres instead of BB bags. There is enough clearance for the spheres to unwrap on the ends of their strings. At the end of the throw their energy is dissipated into the foam. The thrower, who is laying face down on top of the ladder, remains clear of the spheres which are thrown horizontally.
The 2670 gram wheel appears to stop after about a third rotation. When the wheel is stopped the spheres are near the end of their strings and are moving rapidly.
The sphere at the bottom of the picture is on the end of a string tied and taped to the top of the wheel. The string of the sphere on the right is wrapped around the wheel and the end of the string is tied around the wheel and fastened by the other tape. The lengths of the tether strings are roughly equal and are over half of the circumference. The burnt orange cloth is a marker.
As I recall an inch sphere has a mass of about 69 grams. This means that 138 grams has all the motion that was previously held by 2808 grams. The sphere’s velocity must be much greater to conserve linear Newtonian momentum than that velocity necessary to conserve kinetic energy. But the spheres can have only one velocity.
The 2670 gram wheel appears to stop after about a third rotation. When the wheel is stopped the spheres are near the end of their strings and are moving rapidly.
The sphere at the bottom of the picture is on the end of a string tied and taped to the top of the wheel. The string of the sphere on the right is wrapped around the wheel and the end of the string is tied around the wheel and fastened by the other tape. The lengths of the tether strings are roughly equal and are over half of the circumference. The burnt orange cloth is a marker.
As I recall an inch sphere has a mass of about 69 grams. This means that 138 grams has all the motion that was previously held by 2808 grams. The sphere’s velocity must be much greater to conserve linear Newtonian momentum than that velocity necessary to conserve kinetic energy. But the spheres can have only one velocity.
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re: energy producing experiments
A perfect experiment would have to be conducted in space where you would wrap a thin walled cylinder with thin fibers and place masses on the ends of the fiber. You would use two equal masses on the end of equal length fibers that would be counter balanced at 180°. You would spin the cylinder with embedded masses (lets use 1 m/sec) and then you would release the masses. If the released masses are 1/10th the total mass; then to comply with Newton’s Three Laws of Motion; the two masses would have to be traveling 10 times as fast (10 m/sec) when the masses have all the motion. If the experiment complies with the Law of Conservation of Energy then the masses would only be traveling 3.16 m/sec.
It is not likely that we can convince NASA to repeat this experiment but the one we conduct on Earth must look as much like it as possible. The experiment in space would have no bearing, it would be moving on no surface, and there would be no air (resistance).
You could spin a rim horizontally and release the spheres from the surface of the cylinder at the same time that you drop both cylinder and spheres. You could devise a system to release the spinning rim with embedded spheres from the same height and at the same point in the rotation. This arrangement would have no bearing and it would be working on no surface.
You could you an over head fan motor to regulate a known spin rate.
An over head video capture would divide the event into still photos 1/30th of a second apart.
You should be able to tell if the spheres are moving 3.16 times as fast or 10 times as fast. Either way this experiment is worth the Nobel Prize in Physics because it negates one or the other of the Laws mentioned above.
How are you coming with yours; Broli?
It is not likely that we can convince NASA to repeat this experiment but the one we conduct on Earth must look as much like it as possible. The experiment in space would have no bearing, it would be moving on no surface, and there would be no air (resistance).
You could spin a rim horizontally and release the spheres from the surface of the cylinder at the same time that you drop both cylinder and spheres. You could devise a system to release the spinning rim with embedded spheres from the same height and at the same point in the rotation. This arrangement would have no bearing and it would be working on no surface.
You could you an over head fan motor to regulate a known spin rate.
An over head video capture would divide the event into still photos 1/30th of a second apart.
You should be able to tell if the spheres are moving 3.16 times as fast or 10 times as fast. Either way this experiment is worth the Nobel Prize in Physics because it negates one or the other of the Laws mentioned above.
How are you coming with yours; Broli?
re: energy producing experiments
It looks feasible in initial tests. The string will have to be replaced with boards because the cylinder slides along the string and quickly becomes imbalanced. But it will spin it.
I also bought two 14 foot by 4 inch by 6 inch wolmanized poles to make a crane to mount the blue model onto the 8 ft stand.
I also bought two 14 foot by 4 inch by 6 inch wolmanized poles to make a crane to mount the blue model onto the 8 ft stand.
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re: energy producing experiments
Aero drag increases with square of speed. No long distance throw experiment will generate reliable data with the mechanisms and mindset you have.
C'est pourtant evident.
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FunWithGravity2
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re: energy producing experiments
Ray, you and NIC need help. Go away with this type of nonsense
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
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path_finder
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re: energy producing experiments
The return of the troll...Please nicbordeaux change your computer password.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 7265#67265
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 7265#67265
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
re: energy producing experiments
Ray quote: “Aero drag increases with square of speed. No long distance throw experiment will generate reliable data with the mechanisms and mindset you have.�
Answer: The guns of battleships are capable of casting a missile (or shell) 20 miles and can hit a basketball court. These missiles have no internal trajectory correcting ability; they are shells not rockets. I would guarantee you that ballistic charts would tell you the muzzle velocity within a few m/sec. There would be ballistic charts for 1 kilogram shells as well. If you knew the shape; density, release angle, and distance thrown someone could tell you the initial speed.
Remember the velocity to be determined is either a number or the square root of that number, which is a big difference.
I would use a photo gate timer anyway. But there are many ways to determine speed.
Answer: The guns of battleships are capable of casting a missile (or shell) 20 miles and can hit a basketball court. These missiles have no internal trajectory correcting ability; they are shells not rockets. I would guarantee you that ballistic charts would tell you the muzzle velocity within a few m/sec. There would be ballistic charts for 1 kilogram shells as well. If you knew the shape; density, release angle, and distance thrown someone could tell you the initial speed.
Remember the velocity to be determined is either a number or the square root of that number, which is a big difference.
I would use a photo gate timer anyway. But there are many ways to determine speed.
Re: re: energy producing experiments
A troll is a person who seeks to draw attention to or away from a subject by throwing the discussion off course with senseless comments. Posting 1000's of ridiculous computer animations which are just pretty gif is being a troll.path_finder wrote:The return of the troll...
See you again in a few months maybe, leisure time permitting.
Ray.
C'est pourtant evident.
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getterdone
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re: energy producing experiments
Beer is the cause and the solution of all my problems.
re: energy producing experiments
This one is interesting, it is on the net. Check 'The Hurt' site if you can't find it. Is it a wheel or an Atwood's or both?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0#
The MIT TEP trebuchet is a classic medieval trebuchet; it only looks like a wheel trebuchet. It incorporates several interesting concepts.
The large beige half disk mass (on which the experimenter sprayed TEP for Tau Epsilon Phi) act as a pulley wheel of an Atwood’s.
The trebuchet is an Atwood’s machine. The barbell masses are part of an imbalanced wheel, they act as the accelerating mass of an Atwood’s. The barbell weights pull down the right side of the beige TEP half moon. The thrown mass slides under the barbell masses before they hit the ground.
In the TEP trebuchet the thrown mass is accelerated with the arm when the throwing arm tightens the tether. This is the same as the wheel trebuchet; at least the current models. The thrown mass of the wheel trebuchet is accelerated with the wheel and then released. When the tether tightens, in the wheel trebuchet, the momentum transfer begins. In the TEP trebuchet the momentum transfer begins when the thrown mass lifts from the ground.
The throwing arm appears ridged so that little motion is lost in the flexing of the arm. A wheel has little flexing as well.
When the TEP’s thrown mass (What is that thing does anybody know?) clears the sled run, and lifts, it begins to absorb the momentum of the entire system. It absorbs some of the momentum of the TEP half moon mass, the arm, and the Atwood’s mass (until the barbell masses hits the ground). The radius at the point where the thrown mass leaves the ground, from the sled run, is roughly equal to the length of the arm. This make it similar to a wheel trebuchet; but not exactly like it.
I am guessing that the system is half efficient. The video scans away from the trebuchet to watch the thrown mass. I would be more interested in what the TEP half moon, barbells masses, and arm are doing. How do they stop? How much motion is remaining in the barbell masses before they hit the ground; or was most of the motion given to the thrown mass?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0#
The MIT TEP trebuchet is a classic medieval trebuchet; it only looks like a wheel trebuchet. It incorporates several interesting concepts.
The large beige half disk mass (on which the experimenter sprayed TEP for Tau Epsilon Phi) act as a pulley wheel of an Atwood’s.
The trebuchet is an Atwood’s machine. The barbell masses are part of an imbalanced wheel, they act as the accelerating mass of an Atwood’s. The barbell weights pull down the right side of the beige TEP half moon. The thrown mass slides under the barbell masses before they hit the ground.
In the TEP trebuchet the thrown mass is accelerated with the arm when the throwing arm tightens the tether. This is the same as the wheel trebuchet; at least the current models. The thrown mass of the wheel trebuchet is accelerated with the wheel and then released. When the tether tightens, in the wheel trebuchet, the momentum transfer begins. In the TEP trebuchet the momentum transfer begins when the thrown mass lifts from the ground.
The throwing arm appears ridged so that little motion is lost in the flexing of the arm. A wheel has little flexing as well.
When the TEP’s thrown mass (What is that thing does anybody know?) clears the sled run, and lifts, it begins to absorb the momentum of the entire system. It absorbs some of the momentum of the TEP half moon mass, the arm, and the Atwood’s mass (until the barbell masses hits the ground). The radius at the point where the thrown mass leaves the ground, from the sled run, is roughly equal to the length of the arm. This make it similar to a wheel trebuchet; but not exactly like it.
I am guessing that the system is half efficient. The video scans away from the trebuchet to watch the thrown mass. I would be more interested in what the TEP half moon, barbells masses, and arm are doing. How do they stop? How much motion is remaining in the barbell masses before they hit the ground; or was most of the motion given to the thrown mass?
re: energy producing experiments
Between 1:10 and 1:25 they (twice) mention a bowling ball, and something about liquid nitrogen.pequaide wrote:When the TEP’s thrown mass (What is that thing, does anybody know?)