It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than trying to solely profit

[scott]

LOL nice try Robert. Anyone can click the IP button on the last post by "Torque Seeker" and see that it is you using a fake alias. Now you are in direct violation of the Terms of Use that you agreed to when signing up on the forum.

There it states:

Your Conduct:
...You explicitly agree, in using this web site or any service provided, that you shall not... Impersonate or misrepresent your association with any person or entity, or forge or otherwise seek to conceal or misrepresent the origin of any Content provided by you;

You are quickly on your way to being banned from the forum, Robert. Congratulations!

[rks1878]

Ralph, these are major concerns to the universe you've brought to our attention.
Don't leave the thread. Then you'd be like robert and he might catch Ken behind your back. We need your input to keep the page views down.

I think that robert should be kicked off the board because he has made me feel bad several times. It is not good to make others feel bad as the world outside depends on being a mutual admiration society, where noone ever critizes anyone else or calls them bunghole for example. Of course it's ok to call robert a "prick", a "ballhog", assert that he uses "drugs", or is a "homosexual".
These are in the realm of liberal "ok-ness" as this is how we feel.
It's just our policy goddamit.
Everybody but us, shut-up.
As "jim kelly" says "some people understand damn little." otto

Scottie
That's a good one! The TOS refers to misrepresentng a third party, like if I impersonated "jim kelly", but that's OK. We can just tell a big lie and get him arrested like they did Bessler! Worked for Hitler. Worked for Ted Kennedy saying that he swam like a porpoise against strong currents after drowning MaryJo.

[AgingYoung]

Wobert is a fraud to himself.
His deluded little mind has convinced itself that he's gonna be the one to build a working gravity device first

That's silly. Everyone knows I'm going to be the first.

Gene

[coylo]

Wobert is a fraud to himself.
His deluded little mind has convinced itself that he's gonna be the one to build a working gravity device first.....LOL, and after that some major arse-kissing will commence, no gay....sorry I mean - no way.
Ralph has just reminded us of Wobert's blackmail, his bullying and his ambition to have the longest thread here, teasing and promising us much but instead delivers nothing but the ugly side of his nature and his hypocrisies (he calls himself a Christian?)!
Can that be considered fraud?......It'll do for me, chuck'em in!

How could I forget to add the "Torque Seeker" incident, probably because it was forgettable just like everything else Wobert has done!
Once he realized that he was not going to regain his rep via blackmail (I almost gave in because I really missed his juicy updates) he returns as "Torque Seeker" probably in an effort to keep his personal pride intact because he just couldn't resist posting here.....didn't last long though because we're not as dumb as he thought.

or forge or otherwise seek to conceal or misrepresent the origin of any Content provided by you;

This is where the rules apply to you - in plain english.......you tit.

"ballhog"

I called you a ballbag, not a ballhog...?

That's silly. Everyone knows I'm going to be the first.

Gene

If you were the first Gene, I reckon I could live with that.

[AgingYoung]

Maybe a decision has to be made. My preference is to put off decisions until the last possible moment. If a decision has to be made then something that should enter into the process is numquam ponenda est pluritas sine necessitate; a little bit of wisdom brought to us by the christian and Franciscan friar William of Ockham.

It seems to me that there are two ideas that are being discussed. One is being offensive and the other is crossing the line of simply being offensive by being fraudulent. I couldn't argue that Robert hasn't been offensive. He's offended me. He hasn't done a good job at it yet Robert has made the point that some have offended him. When you reduce everything as much as you can people have been offensive on both sides. The real question is, 'has Robert been fraudulent?' I don't think he has.

I did a google on Georg Künstler and found that he does indeed claim to understand how to make a working wheel. Georg Künstler did a gigantic job by discovering Bessler´s secret by absolutely conclusive solution. Georg is so persuaded that he built this 'working wheel?'.



All that might not have crossed the line from being offensive to being fraudulent but Georg is so persuaded he encourages others to 'experiment' for him. He told Sevich in an email,

I remember in one of his emails he said he'd send (post) me a small working PM model machine so it'd be easier for me to understand once I see it! ....this was 9 months ago................I'm still waiting !!

It may be that Georg is so persuaded he understands how to make a working wheel that he doesn't think about how that optimism effects others. It causes them to spend their time and money working on an idea that Georg can't seem to get to work. If he hasn't crossed the line from being offensive to being fraudulent he sure is jumping up and down on the line.

Gene

[Michael]

Boards like this beg, they absolute beg to be infiltrated by the creepy little crumbs that like to have some fun. There is no getting rid of them. I think that some icons should be placed at the home page and some of them should have images like P.T. Barnum with the captions,
This is pioneer land,
buyer beware,
enter at your own risk,
and "there is a sucker born every minute"
along with all of the positive icons to of course.

[ken_behrendt]

Gene wrote:

I couldn't argue that Robert hasn't been offensive. He's offended me. He hasn't done a good job at it yet Robert has made the point that some have offended him. When you reduce everything as much as you can people have been offensive on both sides. The real question is, 'has Robert been fraudulent?' I don't think he has.

I tend to agree with the observation that Robert really has not claimed to have a working wheel yet and he has not tried to profit by such claims. As far a being offensive is concerned, sometimes, on any forum, a name calling contest can start up because one member says something that is misinterpreted by another and the matter escalates until someone gets banned from the board. I've seen it happen on other discussion boards with some frequency. Each of the parties involved will claim the other started it and then proceed to post past quotations of the other in an effort to verify their charge. It goes around and around and nothing is finally accomplished.

That's why I have tried to cultivate the ability to disagree with someone else without becoming disagreeable in the process. I agree when I can and disagree when I must. But, on the other hand, I've also had many experiences in the past where others have successfully managed to point out my mistaken assumptions to me and when I can accept my mistake, I am willing to acknowledge my error, change my mind about things, and then get on with life. There's nothing wrong with being wrong in life just so long as one can learn from one's mistakes and try to use that new knowledge to make progress.

As far as George is concerned, it is difficult for me to determine if he is a fraud or not. One the one hand he has posted copious amounts of graphics and talks as though he has working devices. But, on the other hand, the few who have tried to replicate his devices seem to report that they do not work. I guess that, in the final analysis, we must look at the "weight" of the evidence in any case. If a single person or even a few people claim that a device works and there is a growing body of individuals who say that they have attempted to replicate the device without success, then a point is reached where one can not merely dismiss all of the failures as due to imprecision or an error in replication. One must eventually realize that either a case of fraud or delusion is involved. Sadly, much time, effort, and money can be wasted before such a judgement can finally be rendered with confidence.

You posted an intriguing photo from George's site showing what appears to be a wooden scale model of the Merseberg wheel. Does it work? I do not know. Would a video clip of it accelerating prove it did? No. The video could be faked. Would the testimony of one of the inventor's friends prove it did? No. They could be deluded or part of a scam. Suppose a newbie showed up on this Discussion Board and claimed he had built the device and it worked. Would that prove it worked? No. They could also be deluded or part of a scam. We must always remember that this Discussion Board can act as a giant magnet for fraudsters looking for victims to market their worthless devices to.

So, how can one ever know if a device is workable? There are only two ways I know of. Either build the device yourself and prove it works or receive the testimony from someone else that you trust who says it works. Unfortunately, these conditions have been lacking in all cases I am aware of regarding free energy type devices...with the single acception of Bessler's wheels. Although Count Karl may not have been an angel in the morality department, I feel I can trust him when he stated Bessler's Kassel wheel was the real thing. That is enough to keep me searching for a way to duplicate the invention. When it comes to George's devices, so far, I have not heard or read about any sort of independent collaborative information that would convince me 100% that they were, in fact, genuine. Will that change in the future? I do not know, but I will try to maintain an open mind pending further information.


ken

[rks1878]

I know ovyyus will bitch, but the $150.00 plus, part arrived yesterday, and is seems to work beautifully.

It is a good thing I haven't posted many details along the way. Ralph said people have approached him with some of my ideas to try and work with them. I wouldn't want anyone to take a possibly unworkable design of mine to the length that Sevier did. See, even with slim details, people were "leaning forward."

I think I have been falsely accused of fraud by Scott and that he is the one who should be banned from the site.

You know, it would be a shame to move this thread away, it's the only one on the net to be equipped with "dual airbags", coylo and ralph.

[fAtnhapy]

"See, even with slim details, people were "leaning forward."

Any of them women?
:0)
fAt

[coylo]

Of course, you're all right, Wobert has not been fraudulent and no one said he has been!
I don't think Scott was actually serious about moving Wobert's thread into the fraud section. He was probably making Wobert sweat a little and true to his form he took the bait, and made himself look like a right tit as usual.
If I had Scott's power I would just delete this thread and ban Wobert, but that's me.

I've never been compared to an "airbag" before. It hasen't even registered on my offensive processor. C'mon Wobert, you can do better!

[rlortie]

Robert,

Yes I have seen some of your designs. To me they looked like a genetic cross between your input and a combination of Kens in multiple form. In other words it reminded me of an explosion of a noodle factory. After a quick once over I filed them in #13 which is a polite way to say the trash can.

As for leaning on any of your work, it would more likely be your business web site as you do display some fine cabinet work.

Others can bicker as to whether you have commited fraud or not. By coming back under an alias is fraud in my books. I do not believe that I have ever read in the forum rules that "fraud" only pertains to stating you have a working wheel when you do not.

I agree with Scott, you violated the forum rules and should be recognized accordingly. As for you personal insults, I could care less. I simply consider the source.

Acusing me of portraying duel roles as myself and James goes beyond personal and is downright slander, A legal tort often leading to lawsuit for deformation of character. I hope your business liabilty and performance bonds are in good standing. :o)

Ralph

[rks1878]

ralph,

So is portraying me as using illegal drugs and having problems with customers.
You should apologize.

robert

[rlortie]

Robert,

"I"should apologize. Now that beats my interpretation of "conceit"

I always thought it was an ant floating down the river with an erection hollering "open the draw bridge"

I did not portray, (to represent dramatically) that you were using illegal drugs. I said you give me the impression that you may be on something, I did not specify illegal or over the counter.

[scott]

Scottie
That's a good one! The TOS refers to misrepresentng a third party...

Actually you are wrong there. If you had read it you would have realized that in addition to many other things it says:

You explicitly agree, in using this web site or any service provided, that you shall not... forge or otherwise seek to conceal or misrepresent the origin of any Content provided by you

which is exactly what you did when you created and posted under a false alias. Combatting the use of false aliases was one of the main reasons I introduced the Terms of Use agreement a couple of years ago in the first place.

Robert, thanks for the memories, it's been fun. You now have three options.
1) Acknowledge the error of your ways and make amends
2) Leave quietly with whatever respect you have left, or
3) Continue to rant and rave and make enemies until you are officially banned from the board.

So far only Vandugegs has chosen option 3, but something tells me you will probably be following in his footsteps soon.

-Scott

P.S. I noticed that one of the users who gave you a positive reputation rating was none other than your fake alias "Torque Seeker." That account has now been deleted, which gives you one less positive reputation vote. Nice try.

[rks1878]

Scott,

You're the man.
I acknowledge the error of my ways and will make amends for the dreaded Torque Seeker caper.

robert