frcm - 4D

[jim_mich]

Murilo,

Ri = 400 mm (Too big, Ri must be smaller than Ro)
Ro = 180 mm
Rw = 25 mm
Hi = 900 mm
Mw = 400 g

These dimension do not work. Ri (Radius inner) must be smaller than Ro (Radius outer). Don't say 'change this' or 'change that'. Tell me ALL 4 dimensions and the weight exact as you want them.

[Wheeler]

Well I hope it works.
It would surely shame ones who think we are separate.
The two wheel system is very clear. A remarkable feat of thought.

[murilo]

Jiiiiiiimmmmmm....
Yes, Ri must be smaller than Ro. IT IS, Jim!
Ri is wheel's radius plus chain width, right?
Why not to use a much bigger - than the width - radius?
Why shouldn't this be feasible? Because you don't want to?

If you don't want to, I and my chain don't care much, because this solid moment calcule has nothing to see with us... We both are completely articulated.

Try to calculate with the same data I sent and use Ri as 400mm and Ro as 485mm - unbalance 2:1.

By the way, 18 is the number of 'vertices', or better said, 'levels', and each compressed or expanded level means 4x200g - 2 double halteres each.

Wheeeeeelerrrrrrr... you spoil to me!
Soon, in some 12 to 16 weeks more, I'll reach to all answers.

Today is still Karnival down here... Ôba...ôbaaaa... M. SP feb/28

[AgingYoung]

murilos system is very close to the process of the fall of water to earth. The system of fall, hold, and then evaporation I mean. Even if it is not workable, it is ingenious in design.

I've considered Murilo's idea and have another description of it. Basically the left side could be considered 36 moments spread around 270° beginning at 269.5° & ending at 270.5°. Over that one degree there are 36 moments represented; each separation is 1/36th°. The moments on the right side are spread over 89.5° & 90.5° but there are only 20 of them (1/20th° interval).

If you consider the design to be an articulate chain you might have some problem considering it. The chain is only articulate when it's in transition. On the left side and right side the chain is rigid. On the bottom and top of the chain is where the chain moves. It seems to me that if the weight of the pile on the left doesn't put pressure on the transition at the bottom that the idea described above is very sound. If that is the idea that Murilo has modeled I can't see why it won't work.

I think a very important idea is that the chain needs to accelerate at the bottom in order to spread out and the weight of the chain on the left can't be driving or pushing that transition. It could be more practical to have two sprockets at the top and bottom to be able to control that transition. That would make the moments of transition centered around zero degrees and 180 °. Basically Murilo would be taking the sweet spots of the circle for work and transition and extending them thru all the moments. He would be going immediately from zero degrees (transition) to 270 °(work). Then immediately from 270° to 180° (transition) to 90° (elimination of moments or as you say evaporation, Wheeler)

Making a circle a square; it's a brilliant idea if it can be modeled.

Gene


ps edit:

Wheeler,
You asked me if I agreed with Jim's analysis. I think his analysis is most likely very accurate but I don't think it is an understanding of what Murilo is attempting.

[ken_behrendt]

The problem with murilo's AvalanceDrive device is that, IF it worked, then it would have to have the same number of weights falling on its left side as rise on its right side during any time interval. This situation can not create a CCW torque on the lower cog. The design, when viewed statically, is deceptive. Although there are less weights on the compressed section of chain on the right side, they must rise at a faster velocity so that the total number of weights dropping and weights rising is equal during any time interval and, as a result, the net change in gravitational potential energy of the device over time must be zero. It can, therefore, produce no motion. And, this is what my simple WM2D model of the chain earlier in this thread demonstrated.



Murilo wrote:

Soon, in some 12 to 16 weeks more, I'll reach to all answers.

Does this mean that you will have a finished prototype of the AvalanceDrive in another 12 to 16 weeks?



ken

[Wheeler]

Gene
Can you explain more on this?

If you consider the design to be an articulate chain you might have some problem considering it.

Thanks Ken
That helps in the understanding of the system.
It may be that Murilo's system is indeed falling slower on the descending, so the rise may be faster.
But that would not work, if the system is on the same sprocket.
I think Gene was referring to this.

[murilo]

Gene, you made an inteligent appreciation!

( I need to take care with explanations in order to not cause confusion.)

Fact is that the chain may behave as solid and present a single resultant in the lighter and heavier piles, while accepting to the localized transitions.

It falls at the *tangent* of that under wheel and this is a very important stuff.
From the tangent it passes to radian moving. The inner rods go at same falling velocity and the 'outer' CHANGES to faster, in a elongated radius.

This faster peripheric velocity is already the velocity for the rising velocity, that comes 'naturaly'. The chain, here, will find its volumetric state change. This wheel is the 'converter'.

When openning, or shutting, the chain will need just *small torsions* at some of its small shafts. These discrete and light torsions at the small angle shafts are not in direct relationship to the main applied forces - and I know that you are not preppared to hear this.

EVERYTHING that falls, falls at 'g' velocity, wich is too fast! I also can imagine to what may hapen when kinetics will come and act. So, I'm sure that a breack, or charge, to force a very low velocity will be a must at wheel's shaft! Low velocity will be also mandatory at the top.

You see? I have no doubts that the set will 'discharge' with violence.
Otherwise, you all are invited to tell me where it will brake. :]

Ken, yes, without any rush, I'll start to a new model. God helps me!
regs. M. feb/28th

Look at this:
Quote of the Day

"A new idea is delicate. It can be killed by a sneer or a yawn; it can be stabbed to death by a joke, or worried to death by a frown on the right person's brow."
- Charles Brower

[jim_mich]

Murilo (or anybody),

I have a computer program for Murilo's Chain at: http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/Misc/Murilo.zip

This is a 1,569,560 byte zipped file. This is too big to upload to the forum.
Download and save it in a temporary folder.
Unzip it, preferably into the same temporary folder.

It contains three files:
- Murilo.CAB 1,512,897 bytes
- setup.exe 140,800 bytes
- SETUP.LST 5,373 bytes

It's posible (but very unlikely) for someone to add a virus to these programs. They would need to hack into my Internet Provider's server and then take the time to modify the zipped file. That is why I list the exact file sizes.

Run the setup.exe file. It should be in the temporary folder were you unzipped it.
The setup.exe file will install the Murilo Chain program onto your computer.
The 'Murilo Chain' program should be located in the your Programs list.
After installation the above four files my be deleted from the temporary folder.

The program itself is simple enough that I don't think it needs instructions.

[murilo]

Jim,
it was not possible to install this program.
I'll try later.
If I understood, one my simulate to several arrangements for the chain.
Good!
regs. M. SP 28/feb

[AgingYoung]

Wheeler,
What I meant by the chain not being articulate is that for the most part it's a rigid chain. It's only articulate when it is spreading out or compressing. Although it's jointed or segmented when it's in the columns it acts as one piece or a pile.

Gene

[murilo]

Yes, boys... you do understand to this chain.
While openning or shutting the angles behavy just like *hinges* and only for a few degrees.

Jim, I couldn't make it work and deleted to it... what is the deal?
Cheers. M. SP mar/01

[SeaWasp]

I installed and it ran ok.

[ken_behrendt]

murilo wrote:

Ken, yes, without any rush, I'll start to a new model. God helps me!

I think that is what you need to do. We can post all kinds of "proofs" that the AvalanceDrive can not work, but until you see it for yourself, then you will not believe us. But, good luck with your efforts anyway. Maybe you see something in it that we have all missed and you will, after all, be able to get it to run.


ken

[jim_mich]

I couldn't make it work and deleted to it... what is the deal?

I'm sorry, I didn't make it fool proof. I can't look over your shoulder to see what went wrong. You must tell me what went wrong...

Were you able to unzip the file? Yes/No?

If so, after you unzipped the file, did you find the three files? Yes/No?

If so, did you run the setup.exe file? Yes/No?

If so, did the setup run ok and finish ok? Yes/No?

If so, did you find 'Murilo Chain' on your programs list? Yes/No?

If so, did you try to run the 'Murilo Chain' program? Yes/No?

If so, what happened?

[murilo]

Ken... thank you for your kind words. I know that there is not much else to say. Just question of time and patience!

Jim, I have done to all steps and it was installed... nothing was running. After that I tryed to make it run with different datas. It kept quiet. No run or results.
I'll do it again.

What should I see, then?
regs. M. SP mar/02