Besslers Codes

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ovyyus
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by ovyyus »

Fletcher wrote:...that Besslers demonstrations can be duplicated using the same wheel dimensions & using a consumed internal fuel burning as a heat source...
Fletcher, I used to think that coming up with a rational and demonstrable way of replicating Bessler's wheel demonstrations using fraudulent means which escaped the examiners scrutiny might help settle the matter. I was wrong. Even a perfectly functioning fraudulent replica of Bessler's wheel that passed every historical test can not settle the matter for the reasons you outlined.

IMO, the Bessler mystery will endure unless one of two things happen: a) someone discovers a 'true PM' method (by 18th C standards) which replicates Bessler's wheel demonstrations. b) someone discovers verifiable hidden descriptions of Bessler's method encoded in his literature. Everything else just adds to the mystery.
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by daxwc »

You could dig a wheel up right in Besslers grave and the hard-core would deny it is his if it didn’t run off gravity only.
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by ovyyus »

Well daxwc, if I dug up a wheel (whatever it might be) in Bessler's grave (wherever it might be) then my problem would be solved. I can't speak for the 'hard-core'.

I'm certainly intrigued by Oystein's research and I want to know more. It would be a beautiful and fitting conclusion to the Bessler story. Optimism isn't dead, at least :D
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Post by eccentrically1 »

i'm interested too, but i can't share your optimism because he interprets his findings so far as a gravity wheel.
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by rlortie »

eccentrically1,

If you cannot share optimism regarding a gravity wheel, meaning you are biased against it, what mode or mechanism do you feel is responsible for maintaining a self-runner? How many choices do you have available excluding gravity?

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Post by eccentrically1 »

i think the first three wheels were powered by an internal storage of energy, likely inside the weights or the axle depending on which wheel we're talking about.The fourth wheel was internally powered and externally powered for the long test, some sort of pressure gradient no one could see. It wasn't under load for the long test other than air drag and a little on the axle, so it didn't take much pressure to keep it going once the internal storage got it started.
How do you think gravity could power it?
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by ovyyus »

eccentrically1 wrote:i'm interested too, but i can't share your optimism because he interprets his findings so far as a gravity wheel.
I want to know if Bessler encoded the solution to his secret in his literature. I don't particularly mind what the solution is.

If a complex encoded message actually exists will it precisely describe how his wheel worked or will it be a cleverly executed wild goose chase or an unhelpful homage? Hopefully Oystein's book isn't going to be titled, "Bessler's Codes - an ancient mystery solved?" :P
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Post by Grimer »

eccentrically1 wrote:...
How do you think gravity could power it?
By storing energy as strain energy on one side and releasing this energy on the other.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by raj »

I just finished reading today's posts on this thread, and while reading, a question crept in my mind.

This is it:

What happens if you wound a clock spring inside a cylindrical container, and put the container of a flat surface.

Will the container roll?

This was a subconscious search for possible fraud.

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re: Besslers Codes

Post by raj »

Apologies!

Duplication.
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by daxwc »

ovyyus:
If a complex encoded message actually exists will it precisely describe how his wheel worked or will it be a cleverly executed wild goose chase or an unhelpful homage?
If a wild goose chase or taunting exists in some sort of code in AP then it is just about a certainty in my opinion that the real solution lies in his works somewhere.
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Post by Fletcher »

eccentrically1 wrote:
i'm interested too, but i can't share your optimism because he interprets his findings so far as a gravity wheel.
Bessler says his wheels were driven by imbalance [preponderance], & elsewhere that weights gained force from their motion/swinging, & that these weights were the constituent PM principle - and that his wheels were True PM [as described in his time].

One can always take the view that an additional force was manifest inside a wheel that caused the lifting or shifting of weights to cause that superior imbalance - that would be the 'environmental effect', an undisclosed gradient or energy source or energy sink used to create torque when required - it could be a serious contender, or not !

However, Bessler never admits to the use of any additional forces other than gravity obviously, & possibly Cf's from the toy page spinning top, if that is the correct interpretation for the top - so without evidence from him that an an additional force was sequestered to do the 'dirty work' we are left with his literal word that imbalance was the motivator of his True PM principle, & nothing more, or less.

That is the relevance & importance of Oystein's work as Bill says - it is the opportunity to finally get a steer from the man himself on what & how his wheels worked, or not ! - an opportunity to finally get some closure on some outstanding issues including the above discussion, so it should be interesting to all persons with pet theories including skeptics.


ETA: although Oystein says otherwise it may be that AP does provide a decoder to find symbols etc & that MT is not needed - I would suspect however that the encoding system revealed in AP could itself reveal a different mechanism in MT since that book was never published & so meet his requirement for posthumous validation & not risk premature disclosure otherwise - just speculations.
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re: Besslers Codes

Post by johannesbender »

bessler also said things of the opposite like theres always the chance that a small unpredicted shove
could throw it OUT OF BALANCE ?? what ?

this guy was a perfectionist imho everything he did he did in such a mannr
that it was an art , if he has hidden it in his books he did it in such
a manner that it had to be perfect and an art .

if he made his wheels he did it perfect and artfull , if he were to
deceive any one it would be done to perfection , i however believe
the man did hide something somewhere , in his books or maby his books
just the key and the secret lies somewhere else to be unlocked by this
key , the best type of mysteries are treasure hunters dreams , in fackt
i wont be surprised if we end up discovering a map or such in his books
that leads to a physical wheel or part concealed by the man himself .

if he has hidden the complete secret in his book it has to be very well
planned out because he would have known if his book made some
rather mass distribution the more people trying to crack it the
more chance of success , a cipher or code has to be done in such
a fashion as to give ohther unwanted people from easily cracking it ,
there could be many layers to such a thing ..

i always thought the smart thing to do would be to incode only
the key in a book wich would not be distibuted world wide and
then the real secret inside already existing books like the bible
wich would see worldwide distribution and remain unchanged as possible and
translated as much as possible , that way every one would have the secret
but few the key ..

the only problem to this is , does any one discover it ,how to
make sure that person does not claim it his own work ?

if physical parts or wheels were hidden somewhere it could help
prove him as the inventor of it by maby hiding a part of the secret
like a book or map or wheel part in his grave , i mean if his cipher was so
well done and hard to break and one guy broke it but claimed it his own
no one else would be the wiser , im sure he would have thought about the
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Post by jim_mich »

eccentrically1 wrote:i think the first three wheels were powered by an internal storage of energy, likely inside the weights or the axle depending on which wheel we're talking about.The fourth wheel was internally powered and externally powered for the long test, some sort of pressure gradient no one could see. It wasn't under load for the long test other than air drag and a little on the axle, so it didn't take much pressure to keep it going once the internal storage got it started.
How do you think gravity could power it?
Gravity is a conservative force. Gravity cannot power a PM wheel. A "gravity wheel" will never happen. It is against the laws of nature. You would be a really great scientist if you were ever able to make one pound of falling weight lift more than one pound back upward. Bessler explained that if you tried to use falling weights to lift rising weights, so as to make a PM wheel, as was discussed by Wagner, (Bessler wrote that he never said such) then you would work your fingers to the bone adding ever more weights. Bessler said he learned this a long time ago: From failure one learns. The end result would be your wheel would keep getting heavier. Starlings will use your wheel as a roosting place. Bessler said that is how such an inventor's wheel will be. Stationary!! Good only for the birds to roost on.

If you open your eyes and read what Bessler actually said, rather than distorting his words by your own preconceved thoughts, then you will read that his wheel was not a gravity wheel. Bessler explains that it's a motion wheel and also a perpetual motion. It's a motion wheel because its weights gain their their force from their motions. It's perpetual motion because it does not require winding up, and thus it can rotate perpetually. The ultimate proof that his wheel was NOT rotated by gravity was the balanced two-way wheels.

The Laws of Nature prevent gravity wheels from working. Bessler's wheel was a MECHANICAL Maxwell's Demon type of device that used motion to produce more motion. Then used the increased motion of the weights to rotate the wheel. The reason why none have found the solution is that everyone is looking in the wrong place.

Sorry for the interuption. I'll crawl back into my hole now and pull a rock over my head to protect myself from the stinging arrows of those who run around with their fingers in their ears, screaming, "No, no. no! James Randall is wrong!"

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re: Besslers Codes

Post by Oystein »

My personal thoughts and speculations about Bessler as a person:

As I have worked with this in such detail I get a feeling that Bessler also achieved some mental/stress relief by doing this. It must have been a big pain for him to not talk to anybody about his secrets, and he must have had extreme anger towards all the pretentious people mocking him. He "knew" he would be the last man laughing and future generations would praise him, and even discuss all his secret methods that also is a work of art in itself.

He would have felt that the hidden "patent" was his "secret payback" to Wagner & Borlack etc. For example he could be visualizing Wagner reading the answer from Bessler in AP while Bessler could envision the secret "hidden" information was right there among Wagners own name, but Wagner could not see it. He knew he had the "Ace up his sleeve" or the better hand. Unfortunately he died a little to early. I think his final sale would have worked out, as he saw his time was running out etc.

And should the secret get away by peeking, robbery or somebody else figuring out independently (witch I think was a real fear he had) , Bessler could roll up his system in a trial and prove his originality by published date. There are no other reasons for this.

(Still my personal thoughts:)
Bessler had big thoughts about himself (rightfully) "I can achieve anything", and thought that his works would amaze future generations and make a huge impact in history. (The name was also close to Orpheus, no small comparison) I also think he was so bright that he thought that it would be pretty easy to find the missing mechanism from MT. He just could not envision what a "normal" mind could read in to it. At the same time, he had to protect MT too, if MT was stolen the secret should not be to obvious.
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