Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Georg;
It sounds good, keep it going OK--------------------------------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

FWEIW,

I'm fairly certain now, as certain as I can be, that pendulums have to work in pairs. They can't both flip up. Some how; one has to lift / flip the other one up. All that remains is to find a way to do that----------------------------------------Sam

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Sam,
take a stick with 2 pendulums and move the stick sideways, horizontal, then stop the movement.

If you do that, then you will see that both pendulums will go up simultaneously.
In a rotating frame of reference one pendulum will go to the center, the other to the rim

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Georg,

I guess the stick is horizontal, with a pend. at each end right? I think I see what you mean. In my case, for a very simple gravity wheel, the motion of the pend. isn't important. It's after it swings out and up, locks to the wheel, and then by it's WEIGHT, and only by it's weight, causes the wheel to be out of balance; and then it rotates downward. The actual swinging of the pends. has nothing to do with it, OK----------------------------------Sam

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Sam,
the sideways/horizontal move has as an effect thet the CoM has been moved sideways/horizontal.

An upswing of the pendulum's simultaneously will be made on a different effective level length, that will produce the torque in the wheel.

So the action is shift sideways/horizontal and shortly after that the lift of the pendulums.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Georg,

What can I say----------------I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WaltzCee]

Sam

Since a pendulum arcs a mass from one point to another, why wouldn't a straigh-line mechanism be a better choice?

Travels less distance. Arrives quicker.

[Sam Peppiatt]

WaltzCee,

Yes, let me think about it a little-------------------say if the sliding weight, slide out near the top of the wheel towards the down side, it would work just as good as a pend., or maybe even better. The big problem is when that weight gets to 6:00. Then what do you do with it? Some how you have to get it back up to the top. This is where the pendulums excel. It's all most magical, (barrowing from taiser ? sp), in there ability, to instantly change from being a dead weight at 6:00 back to a perfectly balanced weight. Then returning to the top, like nothing ever happened--------------

Getting the weights back up, has long been thought of, as an insurmountable problem. The pendulums, at leased, solve that problem, ------Sam

[Tarsier79]

Do you have a diagram or video link to show what you mean?

[Georg Künstler]

I think Sam is on the right track,
what I understood from his writing is, that the pendulums are the driver of the rotation of the wheel.

What he did not mentioned is that the force on a pendulum suspension point is being variated during the swinging of the pendulum.
When he mount the pendulums on a rotating disc, then the suspension point is wandering on a perfect circle.
The problem of this construction is that he then must have an additional force anywhere in the system to manipulate this swinging of the pendulum.
He can do this with a spring or a latching system or a combination.
But the timing, when the additional action has to be taken is not solvable from him.
There must be a synchronized swinging in that way that one pendulum is going to the center and the other to the rim, simultaneously, act in pairs.
Here you can take Bessler's word as a bank of the construction, they are working two and two, one is going to the center the other to the rim.
A better way is it to manipulate the speed of the wandering suspension point.
Furthermore the hit,impact is an essentilial part of the construction, because this construction part is variating the acceleration of masses.
An absolute key function.
It allows accelerations beyond g.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi George,
Thanks for your support. Some of what you say does fit, as you mentioned, down to the 'timing', after that not so much. George, I'm not using the swing of the pends., impact, or a changing / wondering suspension point. as you are suggesting. Only, the downward force of gravity is involved. I.E., no reticularness to it.

However, the pendulums do swing out on the down side, with the use of a spring, and latch to the wheel. The one way bearing secures it to the wheel.
Now it, the pend., is rotating with the wheel, causing it to be out of balance, (OOB). It drives the wheel down to bottom dead center, (BDC), precisely at that point the bearing releases automatically. The pendulum reverts,(miraculously), back to it's normal translating state, (balanced), returns to the top, and the cycle repeats, or at least it's supposed to.

Timing, (from a cam), and lifting, is accomplished by a 2nd pendulum, 180 from the first one, which I'm working on right now, and hasn't been done yet. Sorry for going on and on with all the details of it--------------------------------------------Sam

[vlmmoa55]

WaltzCee,

Yes, let me think about it a little-------------------say if the sliding weight, slide out near the top of the wheel towards the down side, it would work just as good as a pend., or maybe even better. The big problem is when that weight gets to 6:00. Then what do you do with it? Some how you have to get it back up to the top. This is where the pendulums excel. It's all most magical, (barrowing from taiser ? sp), in there ability, to instantly change from being a dead weight at 6:00 back to a perfectly balanced weight. Then returning to the top, like nothing ever happened--------------

Getting the weights back up, has long been thought of, as an insurmountable problem. The pendulums, at leased, solve that problem, ------Sam

Sam, I have (almost) the same thought as you regarding your logic on the topic of perpetual motion except that the pendulum will be useful to me for something else.

I will try first without the pendulum

I am missing some accessories and I will start the tests within a week

[Sam Peppiatt]

Tarsier79,
First off, I apologize for spelling error, I meant no disrespect. My language skills are very poor, as you have correctly pointed out. No, unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of it. My computer skills are limited as well, but, they, the pictures, are badly needed-------------------------------------Sam

PS Great Waltzy! good luck with it, Sam

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Sam.
two points to mention.
1. you use the spring to manipulate the outswing of the pendulum, but how do you compress the spring again ? The compress is not for free and will produce always a backtorque,
2. you use a second pendulum which will act in an offset of 180 degrees, that is the case for every amplification system, this is the correct way to do it.


Look at you system closely and you will see that the suspension point, that is the point on which your pendulum is fastened, is going in a circle path.
With the spring you manipulate the amplitude of the pendulum. So you lift the pendulum upwards on the wheel downgoing side.
With the energy of the spring you can lift the pendulum upwards faster than g. Remains only the question who will compress the spring again.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Georg,
Yes. Here is the plan: There is a cam on pendulum no. 2, that works a lever, that stretches out a spring, that flips No. 1, pend. up. One does the work of lifting, the other one does the work of driving the wheel; they work in pairs, (180 degrees apart).

And you are absolutely right, the cam can cause back torque, it has to be kept to a minimum. Also, at 6:00 it will have les effect. But, it is a problem; If the back torque is too much, it won't work. It might be OK; it only swings backwards @ 5 degrees. I Will just have to try it and see.