Announcing a Working WM2D PMM

[rks1878]

I cannot save it in the demo version of WM, but I made a video of it with my camcorder. Was able to zoom in to the center to show that there was no motor running the simulation.

Briefly, it is 12 ea. 5lb weights on the perimeter of a 6 ft wheel, arranged a certain way.

This is no joke.

I said I would let John Collins know first of a working PMM, but this is just a simulation, NOT A REAL 3D physical working model, so if this builds anticipation of the real thing, so be it.

I will still let JC know first of a real, physical model that runs. Not there yet!!!!

Now, suppose I've read or done something wrong with WM that has fooled me. It is a wheel, and it is definately revolving ccw. It appears to speed up and slow down within each revolution. Some of the parts seem to creep out of place from where I have pinned them, but it keeps going.

It is doing a little over 6 rpm.

What is it that could be creating a false reading? Anything??
Why does this wheel appear to be finally working? I need to know if there is any way possible that WM could do something like this and it not be genuine.

[Ed]

Why does this wheel appear to be finally working? I need to know if there is any way possible that WM could do something like this and it not be genuine.

If I had money for every time I had a working sim... (and not the no friction kind)

Don't get too excited just yet. There are many things that can cause you to experience what appears to be a working design in WM2D. Without knowing your design, it's hard to say.

Here is just one example of a working sim I created. The wheel speed up by itself, it had friction on all joints, and no inconsistent constraints.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=957

I currently am working on a good design that has already passed the working simulation stage, but you haven't heard me yelling it's not a joke! ;-)

Much more work to do...

-Ed

[rks1878]

Ed:

Thanks, I'd already seen your simulations. Read all that over again.

There are no springs or rubber bands in my simulation. Only weights and levers causing rotary motion.

Indeed, I am excited (but I have exercised proper caution too though, haven't I?).
Now what I need is more debunkers to come out who've "been there and done that" to shoot holes in what I've done. It's the only way to progress.

Are there any other working simulations out there????

[Jonathan]

Yes, I've gotten all sorts of crazy simulations. And if I'd bother to try, I could've made "working" simulations with the impossible things it showed. But I didn't save a screen shot of any.
I'll be glad to debunk and shoot holes, but as Ed said, we need more to go on.

[rks1878]

Jonathan,

Your crazy simulations....did they appear to work or not?

Your "could have made working simulations" sounds like, not yet.

I just want to know about WM. You don't need to know about what design I'm using. What have been the experiences with WM, regarding apparently "working" simulations?

You all make it sound like, "Ho Hum, we churn these fake simulations out at will while asleep".

[Ed]

Are there any other working simulations out there????

The spring wheel was just ONE example of working simulation I've created. Currently, Stewart and I are working on one (totally different) design that doesn't use springs and the sim works. What....you want me to show it to you? (if everyone else can be secretive, so can we) ;-)

You are the one getting excited, so if you want people to help you, you will need to help us help you.

-Ed

[rks1878]

Honestly Ed!!!!

I'm just asking about the technical quirks with WM. I don't care to know any of the details of yours and Stewart's design.

Do you all have any working PMMs out in the back room you haven't told us about??

[Fletcher]

Tinhead & I have each made or seen a few. When they can self rotate for extended periods (but without additional load or work being done) with wind resistance on low etc we call them "zero runners", a term coined by Tinhead.

By the time you check for unexplained torque properties of components in the properties box & add pin joint friction etc & it still runs then you're allowed to smile :)

If you can add a stamper or lifter to it (even a small one) & it still accelerates then you can grin, stamp your feet & by golly, even holler out loud :)

After that you might as well double check your double checking cause you ain't going to get any sleep any time soon :)

[Ed]

By the way, I have used simulation software for 10 years now. From spice simulation of electronic circuits to rigid and soft body dynamics to fluid simulations. I've even written some robotics simulation software.

The point is, it takes a feel and an understanding to know how far to trust the sim software and what to look out for. That doesn't just come overnight from using something like the demo version of WM2D.

Now I'm not questioning you or your skills, but one of the main things I would say I have learned from my experience is to NOT get too excited. I can't stress that enough! It's ok to be encouraged. And it's fine for you to start a thread to discuss what could be wrong or right with a sim....just don't take the all to common path of big red letters and thread titles with press announcements. :-)

-Ed

[rks1878]

Fletcher that's what I'm looking for. Thanks!

I've got the 6ft wheel friction set at 6.00e-.003 and the pin radius set at 1.00. How good are these settings? It's still turning. The other pins are the same except the radius is 1/8.

[Ed]

I'm just asking about the technical quirks with WM. I don't care to know any of the details of yours and Stewart's design.

It was somewhat of a joke, but since you seemed to be asking more questions than giving information so we could help, I thought I would preempt you asking. :-)

As has been said, it's hard to narrow down where there could be quirks with your sim without further information.

There are also a ton of posts of previous discussions of what to look for and settings of friction, etc. if you search for it!

-Ed

[rks1878]

By the way, I have used simulation software for 10 years now. From spice simulation of electronic circuits to rigid and soft body dynamics to fluid simulations. I've even written some robotics simulation software.

The point is, it takes a feel and an understanding to know how far to trust the sim software and what to look out for. That doesn't just come overnight from using something like the demo version of WM2D.

Now I'm not questioning you or your skills, but one of the main things I would say I have learned from my experience is to NOT get too excited. I can't stress that enough! It's ok to be encouraged. And it's fine for you to start a thread to discuss what could be wrong or right with a sim....just don't take the all to common path of big red letters and thread titles with press announcements. :-)

-Ed

Look, I know I'm just a little bug under a rock compared to some of you titans out there. This simulation quirkiness is something to talk about with those of us who don't get much sunlight!!!!! Shine Upon Us

[Ed]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound crazy. It's just frustrating lately with all the talk and jumping the gun of so many people and their "working" stuff. I didn't mean to take it out on you.

Please, if you can ask specific questions, I'm sure many (including me) will be happy to help.

-Ed

[Fletcher]

Robert, I think Ed, Amateur, jim_mich, Tinhead (sorry if I missed someone out who should be in this list) are the ones to answer specifics. They deal in this stuff every day & are generally really obliging. I could unintentionally run you amok cause I only use it now & then :)

[Jonathan]

Stuff is moving fast lately. Robert asked me:
>Your crazy simulations....did they appear to work or not?
Your "could have made working simulations" sounds like, not yet.<
They were crazy, but didn't work because they weren't attempts at PM. But since they were crazy, I could have taken them and tried to use them in a PMM, and gotten positive results. Most of my crazy sims have not been the kind that do stuff for no reason, they've been the kind that have reason to do stuff, but don't. Like this: I turn on a total force vector for an object, so I can see that there is a substantial total force, and yet the object never accelerates in that direction. I suspect the mass must be too high for the given time interval between frames to show any movement, so I make it really really light, and it still doesn't move.
Now, if, in a scenario like that, the object which is being exerted upon by the equal-and-opposite partner force (of that previous force) does move, then I'd have a system that violates N3L, making it possible to simulate inertial propulsion and PM.
EDIT
Another thing (and this is the first time I've experienced it): I just ran a really long (but simple, so it went fast) simulation that had about 32720 frames, and then kind of stalled. In the help ribbon at the bottom, it said "Computing Frame -32566...". And as if that were not weird enough, it would finish computing one negative frame, and then begin computing another, trying to count up to 0 apparently.