If you answer this you have the solution

[Rob]

Hello everyone,
I have been away from the forum for a while, but see that the enigma of BesslerÂ’s wheel continues.
Let us look at BesslerÂ’s wheel from a different reference point. Let us take the wheel off its fixed mounting at the axel and let the outer rim contact the ground. When the wheel spins it will roll along!
Let me now propose 3 scenarios that will try your logic:
1. if the ground is sloped downward we have no problem seeing the wheel roll downhill, balanced or not, wheels do this, the center of gravity always has a place to descend to.
2. if the ground is perfectly level, we can imagine a perfectly balanced wheel, after being given a nudge, rolling along for some while but finally succumbing to friction. It is harder to imagine this wheel continuing indefinitely, its center of gravity is limited to how far it can drop.
3. Now picture the ground sloping up, even slightly. BesslerÂ’s wheel, able to do some small amount of work, would be able to climb the hill with no external force. A wheel that runs uphill on its own! How could this wheel roll while constantly gaining potential energy?

[ken_behrendt]

I can not answer #3 yet so I guess I do not have the solution...


ken

[SeaWasp]

Rob.. A wheel can be made to roll "uphill" quite easily! It wont, continue going uphill, but nevertheless, it can be made to do it!

Sir Isaac Newton found that things speed up (accelerate) quicker if the force pushing is greater. Can a wheel roll uphill? It can if you make its center of gravity fall as the wheel rises. The center of gravity pushes the wheel uphill. The earth's gravity pulls down on every single particle with a force equal to the weight of that particle. In a body, the forces seem to be concentrated at the 'center of gravity'. Once the center of gravity is hanging outside the base of the object, it will fall over.

A now famous example is the Honda ad which demonstrated 3 wheels travelling uphill when the first was given a nudge!

It can be found here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7521/cool ... ommercial/

Bessler was able to continually maintain his COG to a positive side at all times!

Hmmm.. I answered this post.. Does that mean?... Nah!... Solution is still not with yours truly!

Spiros.

[Vic Hays]

I have an idea for number 3. I think it is possible. The answer is to get gravity to not act like a conservative force. My wheel is half finished.

[Rob]

Seawasp- yes a wheel can roll uphill, but only less than one revolution until the eccentric cg reaches a balance point - this kind of wheel refuses to roll downhill! (I also believe that the Honda commercial is a computer animation)
Vic- to get gravity to act non-conservatively you would have to conteract it at some point - centrifugally, gyroscopically, or orbitally perhaps?

[sleepy]

I understand what you're getting at,but you're comparing apples and oranges to do it.Bessler's wheel ,IMO,would not roll uphill.The friction would be too great,and the load at the rim of the wheel would stop it.It would only have a slightly better chance of rolling on level ground.We might as well say,"If you can get an object to fall up,then you have solved the problem." Of course,that doesn't take into consideration the fact that I have personally fallen up the stairs.For a car to move,you take power applied at the axle and move it out to the rim.Bessler's wheel took power from the rim and applied to the axle.Similar,but still different.

[ken_behrendt]

Rob...

Upon reconsideration, I think that one of Bessler's one-directional wheels could, if its drum supports were properly reinforced, be made to roll uphill against the force of gravity. How much of a "grade" it could climb would, of course, depend upon a variety of factors such as the diameter and weight of the wheel.

You ask:

How could this wheel roll while constantly gaining potential energy?

I do have an answer to this mystery. Basically, I believe that Bessler's wheels were able, while in rotation, to convert tiny amounts of the rest masses of their internal weights directly into mechanical energy which then increased the total rotational kinetic energy of the wheel.

How was this done? Well, most likely, it involves an entirely new "law" of motion, but, simply put, would seem to be the consequence of a system of weights in rotation whose CG can never find the punctum quietus below their wheel's axle which they "unceasingly seek in their wonderous and speedy flight"...


ken

[meagain]

A falling weight brings with it a great deal of force

eg: as in a waterwheel turning massive machinery to grind grain and make flour.

Direct this force and add to it

and perpetual motion is the result

do I have the answer

Meagain again oh the pain

[AgingYoung]

The Bessler wheel would stall on a very slight slope; maybe 2-4 degrees.

A. Gene Young

[SeaWasp]

If I do have a solution...., then, Besslers wheel may or would not be able to roll on any plain!.. Instead it would require to be fixed and rolling on a stand! JMHO!

[bluesgtr44]

Hmmm....would trying to get the wheel to roll uphill be more like attaching the line to lift weights or run an archimedes screw to the perimeter of the wheel? It seems that looking at it this way is shifting the load as it pertains to the wheel.

It would seem that the fair comparison would be to extend the axle and have the axle ride on "skids"...so to speak, that are set up on an incline. This would shift the load more towards the center and free the resistance on the perimeter of the wheel. Does this make sense to anyone?


Steve

[Wheeler]

Steve
your post made me think of this.
What if the axel was not centered, and was on a rotation bearing?
The wheel rolls down a set of guide rails like I drew below.
As it gains speed, it also is shifting the cog.
Then it hits the ground and an internal flywheel keeps spinning, and its energy is released to rotate the offset of the wheels axel again, and makes the cog offset again.
The weight is forward again and it has rolled to a slightly higher place on the guide tracks.

The internal flywheel would have a motion clutch, that would bleed some torque to the system.

[jim_mich]

I would think that if a wheel has enough torque to raise weights, pump water, or raise drop hammers then if it were sat upon the ground it should roll up hill.

[rlortie]

Jim_mich,

I agree with your above statement with the following exception.

<I would think that if a wheel has enough torque to raise weights, pump water, or raise drop hammers,> it should roll uphill.

The required net torque value to perform the above would have to equal or exceed the gross weight of the wheel.

Ralph

[jim_mich]

Ralph,

No, the net torque would ONLY need to equal or exceed the gross weight of the wheel if the wheel was being lifted straight upward. When a wheel is being rolled up an incline then it requires only a fraction of the torque that is needed to raise the wheel straight upward. With a very slight incline a mouse could conceivably push a large 500 pound wheel up the incline.

For instance, a one degree incline would require about 9 pounds to roll a 500 pound wheel. Sin(1) x 500 pounds = 8.73 pounds of force.