Helpful Websites!

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SeaWasp
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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by SeaWasp »

Thanks Ralph! I did have that site already in my favourites! What I normally do in this instance is use both resources together. I translate the paragraph using the site you posted, and then I would fill in the gaps with that dictionary program. Some sites will translate words that others don't! Some offer spelling alternatives also. The Dictionary program will usually find those untranslated words!

But thanks for the link! I am sure many here would find that helpful also!

I just want to also add a helpful utility that will run in IE with a right click.
More info & Download:
http://imtranslator.net/plugin-tr.asp#
This can also be obtained through that same translator link you posted
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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by ken_behrendt »

SeaWasp...

I assume that you are using those translator sites to translate Bessler's original German text into English.

Just as a matter of curiosity, have you found any substantial differences between what you are getting and the translations provided by John Collins? I've always thought that his translations were the best available...


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On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by SeaWasp »

Ken..

I perhaps am not really too qualified to answer that question. I am not a German speaking person, and therefore may be missing much of the intended meaning. Having said that, especially after having read much of the Aplogia Poetica Topic, I have found significant differences in the literal translation. Now I am sure that the translator may have used some poetic license to make the words flow and arranged to an English way of speaking. There may have been bits & pieces left out here & there in doing so. I have found as have others qute a few discrepancies from the German to the English translation. I would have hoped to have had the best possible translation also, but sometimes it may pay to get a "second opinion" on the matter.

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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by rlortie »

Using the same translator I have changed modern German into Engish then back to German just as a test. Every time you do this it comes out a little different. A Word here and there missing or not in the same order.

The German person I am communicating with 50 clicks from Count Karls old castle site, agrees that the translation is faulty. He also has made it clear that the German language has seen many changes in words and meaning since Besslers time.

As to the usage and purpose of the X, they are still quite apperent, one message I recieved has one sentence that starts and end with the following -xxx..................-xxx. Looks possible it is our version of quotation marks or (..........)

As of this writing I have not recieved a reply hopefully due to time here compared to there. I have not checked but estimate from my pacific time to Hesse Germany is probably around eleven hours.

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Post by John Collins »

I would like to say that Mike, my translator has a degree in eighteenth century German and perhaps some credit should be given to him for getting it right. Using using web-based translators will sometimes give you the gist of what is written but they are notoriously inaccurate even for modern German and that is why professional translators cannot afford to use them and instead employ people such as Mike for their work. German is not a language which allows itself to be accurately translated by machine and when you throw in a 300 year difference between the German and the English you are asking to be led up the garden path if you rely on such means.

I'm sure you can imagine what would happen if you tried to translate Shakespeare's English into modern German through a translating machine? Yes I know that Shakespeare was more than 300 years ago but it's just a matter of degree.

When Mike agreed to do the translations he asked me if I wanted accurate translations or literal - and he gave me examples of both. One of the literal translations I identified in my book "Perpetual Motion: An Ancient Mystery Solved?". It went something like "...a place where roasted pigeons fly into your mouths" - which he translated as "...a land flowing with milk and honey". Now we are all familiar with the latter phrase but it sounds as daft as the former one when looked at literally! But I'm sure that it was a well-known colloquialism in Bessler's day. I told Mike to do as he saw fit and use his own expert judgment to give as accurate rendering as he could based on what he believed Bessler wanted to say. Obviously the results are coloured by Mike's opinion on what he thinks Bessler meant and you will always get discrepancies between two translations, but for me his words are sufficiently accurate to use as a means to understanding Bessler.

By all means get yourself alternative translations - that is why I publish the originals, but don't necessarily think that a modern German speaker knows better. JI, who I have had contact with several times Ralph, speaks no English, so how on earth can you accept his opinion that Mike's translation is not accurate?

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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by rlortie »

John,

Help me out here:
By all means get yourself alternative translations - that is why I publish the originals, but don't necessarily think that a modern German speaker knows better. JI, who I have had contact with several times Ralph, speaks no English, so how on earth can you accept his opinion that Mike's translation is not accurate?
In the best of regards, where or when did I accept his opinion? To my knowledge no opinion has been implied other than my own at the bottom of this post.

I do not know any Mike that translates or have any idea that the person known as JI who has written me, has made any remarks to me about his opinion on Mikes translation.

What or who ever gave you the impression that I or anyone I have had contact with has questioned Mikes translation is in error, or I am missing something.

The JI who contacted me signs off with Denis, thats with one "n" He has written me three times now and sent two pictures. I have used a web translator to attempt to understand his posts and reply. I guarantee you I know nothing or said anything about questioning any translations other than those on the web link.

The only logic avenue of explaination here is that Mike may be the author of the web link I have been using. Or you have me confused with one of the other posts on this thread.

As for getting another translator, I sent copies of Denis posts to Scott as per Denis instructions. He wrote that he would be in contact with Scott.

I get the opinion that he wishes to find an active forum member that speaks fluent German to communicate with and that is basicly all he has implied.

As to why and how he chose to contact me is something that still needs to be explained. Having already established contact with you, only adds to the mystery.

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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by John Collins »

The German person I am communicating with 50 clicks from Count Karls old castle site, agrees that the translation is faulty
The above words of yours appear to imply that you accept his opinion?

Sorry Ralph, I though it was generally known that Mike Senior did all my translation work.

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Post by rlortie »

John,

I now understand the mix up. This quote:
The German person I am communicating with 50 clicks from Count Karls old castle site, agrees that the translation is faulty.
Is in reference to the translation of the electronic web translator we are both using. It does not have any bearing on your works or your professional translator. There has been no mention of you or your writings in any posts received from Denis.

Sorry to have inadvertently lead you astray.

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Post by John Collins »

On the contrary Ralph - it is I who should apologise and I do so. I owe a lot to my friend Mike and I tend to jump to his defence without thought sometimes - sorry.

I wonder what Denis wants as well. I'm going to write to him again but get Mike to translate my words first - and his subequent reply - if he allows it I'll post it .

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Post by rlortie »

John,

I for one am very curious at to what he is leading up to. I think it would be great if you could set up a resolve with him.

I have gathered by our broken communication that Bessler's drawing of MT 137 is a required drawing by second grade elementary students. He also speaks of an inverse pendulum that will make us all stand back and take notice. Hydraulics is also mentioned.

I am also anxious to see if he contacts Scott as he said he would. I have permission to release his posts but I would only do it in the original text to be fair about it. AS for now I hesitate doing so as without a proper translation I may be reading it wrong.

I have also kindly asked Scott to send me back a copy of his translated version.

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Post by SeaWasp »

John Collins wrote:
It went something like "...a place where roasted pigeons fly into your mouths" - which he translated as "...a land flowing with milk and honey". Now we are all familiar with the latter phrase but it sounds as daft as the former one when looked at literally! But I'm sure that it was a well-known colloquialism in Bessler's day.
John, while I don't doubt the integrity of the translation in AP etc, in hindsight, I would say a literal translation may have conveyed the intended imagery that Bessler intended. Especially when we are looking for clues in his writings.

Using the example above, if that bit of text was indeed an important clue, as perhaps in that little shower of words etc, then the image I would receive from that quote would be entirely different to the, "land of milk & honey". While the latter is more aggreable to us English speakers, I for one can see the intended meaning of the original but I also could imagine a weight sliding into a compartment. (If the text was being researched as a clue).

Perhaps many of the strange colloquialisms within Besslers writings may have been intended to convey a mental image of sorts, and this may be lost if the translation has ammended the original words.

Many people on the board do take Besslers writings very literally, (as I have also done). It is disconcerting when you realise that the text may have been altered to read & flow better with an English Bias. Especially when you are trying to form a mental picture from those literal words.

I am not aware though of how acurate the Modern German translations compare to the old. But there seems to be quite a lot gained from translating the words literally.

Please don't think that I have a problem with the translation as such, I am sure the translator did a wonderful job. As he was aware of the differences in the literal and colloquial expressions. I am just saying that the Literal translation may have provided the reader with a more accurate visual description of Besslers thoughts. A description which may spark up a roadmap to the design solution.


Just food for thought.

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re: Helpful Websites!

Post by rlortie »

John and all,

Quote edited:
a place where roasted pigeons fly into your mouths" compared to -a land flowing with milk and honey".
I do not see any different meaning in these two phrases.

Being one who has done hobby research in early architecture find that pigeons raised in pigionares were an intrcate part of the house design. they were built into or extended from the peak of the main end gable with access through the attic. Roasted pigions were a mainstay table source and were savored by many. Pigeon raising was as common as potatoes to the irish. A plump roasted pigeon was as good as being in a land of milk and honey. No respectfull house would dare be seen without a pigeonare pominetly displayed, usually as an extension of gable verge or barge rafter.

This practice carried through to to the late 1800's and can be found on many early american colonial homes
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Post by SeaWasp »

Ralph.. I do agree with what your saying. The quotes basically do mean the same thing. Although the language used is very different. My thoughts on this though, is that, while improvising the original text to conform to our currently accepted colloquialisms, we may miss some of the hidden intended meanings. As a Bessler researcher I would have preffered the original words were used. Those words would be closer to the relevant meaning. Especially if the visual representation portrayed was suggesting an ulterior meaning.
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Post by John Collins »

Good point Seawasp but I know that the particular passage you refer to was translated as literally as possible owing to its strangeness. Mike told me that it struck him as odd at the time and did not do anything to make any more sense of it because of the preceding comment by Bessler about the words which followed.

As for the rest of the translation there were other factors to be taken into account. Apologia was written in rhyming couplets and although he did at first make an attempt to rhyme he asked me if he could just translate without the rhyme as it was nigh on impossible to do all 7000 lines or so in English rhyme.

It's also worth noting that at the time I asked Mike to do the translation I had no idea that there might be coded messages within the text, so I only needed a good translation, rather than a literal one.

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Post by rlortie »

John and all,
Here is my web link translation of letter recieved from Denis. Scott has sent me back his translation on part of what I now have. What you see here is the second letter as the first was only a reply of appriciation for answering him in German.

Denis translation,

Many thanks for your reaction and the friendly answer.
It was an especially pleasant surprise. MSN had announced before, your address is invalid.

I look for a person,
1. in the secret of the Orffyreus is seriously interested and also
2. the German knows. This would make easier my communications.

The automatic translator makes good his thing half. However, I would like to turn rather to a person who can understand immediately. There is also around different old words from the time of the Orffyreus. A modern machine does not know these words because most Germans living today know these words also no more.

Kassel with his valuable documents lies not far from my place of residence (a good 50 kms). But it is a disgrace for the town and for the land Hessen and for Germany all together that here nobody seriously does research and documents. It is like a scientific taboo.

Also I knew nothing, absolutely nothing about Orffyreus till about three years. Therefore, I want to try with pleasure to understand all ignorant people.
Then an easy thought came to me. The examination is also so easy that children can confirm it. And physicists cannot deny it, because it is in her area. But they do not follow it because it is too small for the normal perception property, as well as the micro-organisms everywhere around us and on and in our body of the everyday mind not grasped become What is not in our perception, it does not exist...

But it is there, proves the easy physical law, which a continual strength profit. It has closed at first with a wheel nothing

With my modest means I have built up an attempt arrangement on our terrace. Because I lack every possibility to work with hydraulics, I had to take to the use of the leverages several gear rims and chains and also wheels in addition. - I would like to build this in next summer with the help of bicycle mechanics more solidly, because me chain links are tore by the forces becoming freely.
xxx-as an arrangement I add a photo, with it you of it the first image have-xxx.
-------------------------------
EDIT picture goes here, note xxx- and -xxx used on picture lead-in

----------------------------------
Part of the inverse pendulum of 2005

My interest passes that you (or somebody else, the Orffyreus takes seriously) my considerations take up and these thoughts of other enthusiasts mediate. It is like a seminal grain which should not get lost. The cover (which is not so important I) and will soon be no more.

With it it should be for today enough. With " thank-you! " and friendly greeting

Denis
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