Helpful Websites!

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

rlortie
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8475
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: Stanfield Or.

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by rlortie »

Here is the second letter from Denis

Hello Ralph,

Thanks to for the answer. Has well understood the contents.
The automated translations show immediately her inadequacy.
A computer cannot transmit as regards content sensible, but not everyday communications rationally.

The machine has no reason. He suppresses our best thoughts, because he the sense distortedly or destroyed.
We need a really living person as a translator or interpreter for our common thing.
Has foreseen the complications and, therefore, has asked today with Scott.
the headquarters are for the communication. He can indicate a possibility and mediate (I hope).
If he reacts, you will soon also find out it.
- Please, give then also to the translator my previous letter.-
The " inverse pendulum " is already mentioned in this letter. This is important! In it there lies the easy secret of the strength effects!
All individual, private and personal should stand back if it is about the problem solution of our thing.

" Xxx. ....... xxx " were without other meaning. It should make clear only my tip to the enclosed picture.
They should not be in worry that a computer virus with the picture would be smuggled. Any more this was not.
Now I add again a picture and with him a small musical joke (to MT 137):
---------------------------------------
Edit: picture of MT 137 here. Scott has connected it to the circle of fifths
The circle of fifths (Note from Scott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths ) The circle of fifths appears to conform to MT137
Note that denis implies that drawing MT 137 is required by Second year grammer school students.

--------------------------------------
Second year of grammar school circle...

If you start on top at the head C-Dur/A minor and in the precise melody continue, agree you absolutely precisely
all keys in a well-ordered manner for the music lovers. - They know that Orffyreus loved the music and also could build organs?
In bath Karl's harbour stood an organ built by him.
She is no more... And in the town one says: Orffyreus? Oh the charlatan!

Now I say goodbye first of all to you, dear Ralph,
thankfully for your obligingness. - What Scott can do, I want to wait quietly.

Remarks by Ralph,
Scotts version varies some what from what is seen here, he translated one paragraph that I understand is to be kept confidential. I still have to review Scotts work and possibly do some editting for confidential requests.

Ralph
rlortie
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8475
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: Stanfield Or.

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by rlortie »

Here is Scott's translation, I have cut the confidential portions of my conversation with Scott as well as his reply. Also deleted is one sentence that was meant for me only. as per Denis request.



Thanks for your answer. I well understood what you said.

The inadequacy of automatic translation is readily apparent.

A computer can give a good literal translation of words, but not the connotations of everyday speech. A machine does not have any sense. It hides our best thoughts, because it twists or destroys the intended meaning. We really need human beings as our translators or interpreters. I saw these complications ahead of time and therefore inquired with Scott today.

(Note from Scott: I have never heard anything from this person via email or otherwise)

Scott is the center of communication. He can offer and arrange a possibility (I hope). If he responds, you will also soon experience it (e.g. be included). - please then can you also use the translator on my previous letter. - the "inverse pendulum" was mentioned in this letter. It is important! In it the simple secret of the momentum lies! Edit-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..
Here is where I tried to get a lead on the usage of X by Bessler.

The "xxx...xxx" had no hidden meaning. They only helped to point out my attached picture. They should not cause you any concern that a computer virus was transferred with the picture. It was nothing more than that. Now I add a picture again and with it a small musical game (to MT 137):

The circle of fifths (Note from Scott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths )


If you begin at the point of C-major/A-minor and continue in the exact sequence, you receive a well-ordered set of tones worthy of a philharmonic. You know that Orffyreus loved music and also built organs? One of the organs he built is in the town of Bad Karlshafen. It is no more... And in the town itÂ’s called: Orffyreus? Oh, the charlatan!

So I say good bye for now, dear Ralph, grateful for your cooperation. - I patiently await whatever Scott can do.

(Note from Scott: I reiterate this person has never contacted me.)

With kind regards






Ralph Lortie wrote:
Scott,

The first picture was of a wheel in a high A frame affair taken on his terrace, it is very small and lost to much when I tried to enlarge, I do have it if interested.

The second picture is of MT 137 and is labeled
Second year of grammar school circle...
User avatar
ken_behrendt
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3487
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
Location: new jersey, usa
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by ken_behrendt »

Ralph...

I found it peculiar that your German correspondent would write:
In (the town of Bad Karlshafen) stood an organ built by him.
She is no more... And in the town one says: Orffyreus? Oh the charlatan!
The implication is that Bessler is today considered to be a fraud in his own homeland! Could that be possible? One would think that they would be promoting his accomplishments with the hope of attracting curious tourists.

I heard that in Austria, they've turned an old gymnasium that the famous body builder, Arnold Swartzenegger, used to train in as a youth into a museum that contains his original weights and other information about him. It is slowly becoming a mecca for budding body builders throughout Europe.

I'm starting to think that Bessler derserves better treatment...


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
User avatar
John Collins
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:33 am
Location: Warwickshire. England
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by John Collins »

It's more than an implication Ken. When I first began to research Bessler I had several discussions with a senior member of the staff at Kassel Museum - his reaction to my interest was exactly as quoted by Denis "Oh that Charlatan!" He said to me, "don't you know that we regard him as a criminal?"

Perhaps with success and a little time we'll change their views.

John Collins
AgingYoung
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:44 am
Location: Houston, TX

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by AgingYoung »

John,

There are two possibilities (Bessler was a fraud or he wasn't) and the evidence for either is about equal. Either conclusion is equally uncertain. I wonder what additional evidence that senior member at Kassel Museum had to shift the balance toward, 'Bessler was a criminal.' It's one thing to accuse Bessler of being a charlatan but it's a crocodile of a different color to substantiate that with fact. It is near impossible to prove that Bessler was a fraud yet a working wheel would at least prove that it was possible Bessler might have accomplished the same.

Gene
Working Model 2DImage
[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.
User avatar
John Collins
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:33 am
Location: Warwickshire. England
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by John Collins »

Gene, I think the guy at Kassel Museum took the establishment view and who can blame him? Bessler's wheel is impossibe according to the laws of physics as they are taught.

John Collins
Dave Roberts
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:35 pm
Location: Spencer, Indiana

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by Dave Roberts »

It is easy for Bessler to be called names but everything points to the fact that he was genuine. It is a tragic story indeed. Once vindicated (see my previous post), a museum should be established in his name (as well it should be). Again, I state that this website should be foremost in working toward clearing Bessler's name when the time comes.

I predict that a working wheel will be demonstrated this year. Any naysayers want to challenge this?
Dave
User avatar
ken_behrendt
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3487
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
Location: new jersey, usa
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by ken_behrendt »

Gene wrote:
There are two possibilities (Bessler was a fraud or he wasn't) and the evidence for either is about equal. Either conclusion is equally uncertain.
I do not see it that way. It seems to me that the evidence for the genuine nature of his inventions far outweighs that against their validity. Yes, there is the testimony of a disgruntled former maid of Bessler's that she was involved in keeping one of the wheels turning with a cleverly disquised mechanism. But, she may have been giving false testimony in exchange for payment from Bessler's critics who were desperate to silence him once and for all because they could not duplicate his achievement and it called their own reputations and skills into question.

Actually, the more I have thought about how a genuine gravity wheel might work, the more I am convinced that it's operation need not violate any of the known laws of physics! I think one could go, one by one, through the various laws of motion and thermodynamics and, with a proper understanding of the mechanism he used, offer rationalizations for why Bessler's wheels would not have violated any of them! I have no doubt that when we finally have the solution we seek and have replicated his invention, then this will be done by the academics drawn to the subject.


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
AgingYoung
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:44 am
Location: Houston, TX

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by AgingYoung »

Ken,

If I thought that Bessler was a fraud I wouldn't be looking at the matter. My opinion is based on the circumstantial evidence. There is no specific and conclusive evidence you could point to that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bessler wasn't a fraud. On the other hand there's the conclusion that gravity is a conservative force and that energy can't be created. There are flaws in that reasoning yet it's accepted as fact by most educated people. (edit: Those flaws are a 2nd of three reasons I'm looking at the matter)

As strong of a case could be made for either possibility. I can't see the possibility that gravity is a conservative force being strengthened any further yet if someone would make a wheel that turned that would make a lot of people change their minds.

There is faulty reasoning in science. Consider the law of the conservation of energy and matter. When it was first conceived it was the law of the conservation of energy. After the manhattan project that law was rewritten to include matter. What science thought was modified by new evidence. I think a working wheel will cause the scientific community to rethink the matter. I believe that Newton's third law will need to be modified and the law of conservation will need some major revision (again).

Gene
Working Model 2DImage
[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.
User avatar
ken_behrendt
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3487
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
Location: new jersey, usa
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by ken_behrendt »

Gene wrote:
There is no specific and conclusive evidence you could point to that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bessler wasn't a fraud.
That is true. There is always the possibility that, somehow, his wheels contained a very novel power source of some type which fooled all of the investigators. However, I've pretty much convinced myself that the wheels could not have been powered by any external power source. I've also considered practically every possible "conventional" power source that could be carried "onboard" one of his wheels and none would have been able to provide the total energy his wheels outputted during some of the tests.

So, what does that leave? Only that the wheels must have been genuine...

I am particularly impressed by the word of Count Karl with regard to the Kassel wheel being genuine. Karl had paid a considerable sum to be allowed to examine the wheel's interior so as to convince himself that it was genuine before he (Karl) presented it as such to other members of the nobility. Karl had a very high reputation that he had to maintain...it is inconceivable to me that he would have verified the authenticity of Bessler's largest wheel if that wheel had not been 100% genuine. Also, Karl was no dope. He was highly educated and proficient at mathematics. I must consider it very highly unlikely that Bessler could have fooled him or that he (Karl) was party to a conspiracy to perpetrate a fraud.


I'm sure that the successful replication of one of Bessler's wheels will force some revision in our current laws of physics, but I do not believe it will abolish all or even most of them. I favor the idea that any chronically overbalanced set of rotatable weights will merely slowly convert the rest masses of the weights into kinetic energy that can be used to maintain a wheel's rotation and perform some external work. Such a device seems mysterious to us now, but will seem common place once we have the devices. Kind of like the gyroscope when it was invented during the 19th century. It seemed really mysterious as though it was "defying" gravity, but, eventually, its behavior could be readily described in terms of classical physical concepts. I predict much the same will apply to a working gravity wheel with the exception that we will need to use some of the concepts from 20th century relativity theory to rationalize their performance capabilities.


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
rlortie
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8475
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: Stanfield Or.

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by rlortie »

Ken,

for the sake of argument and thought toward the the whole picture, I ask you about the following statement you bring up in an above post.

<That is true. There is always the possibility that, somehow, his wheels contained a very novel power source of some type which fooled all of the investigators>

I do not believe there was a novel power source. My reasoning is, such a power source would have been a much more important discovery and money maker standing on its own without the wheel. Such a power source that could turn a 12 foot wheel, pick up 60 pounds of brick and drive a four hammer grist mill would have been a colossal break through in 1700 technology. Such a power source would have been exploited with or without the canvas covered wheel subterfuge

Ralph
AgingYoung
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:44 am
Location: Houston, TX

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by AgingYoung »

Ken,
I am particularly impressed by the word of Count Karl with regard to the Kassel wheel being genuine. Karl had paid a considerable sum to be allowed to examine the wheel's interior so as to convince himself that it was genuine before he (Karl) presented it as such to other members of the nobility. Karl had a very high reputation that he had to maintain...it is inconceivable to me that he would have verified the authenticity of Bessler's largest wheel if that wheel had not been 100% genuine. Also, Karl was no dope. He was highly educated and proficient at mathematics. I must consider it very highly unlikely that Bessler could have fooled him or that he (Karl) was party to a conspiracy to perpetrate a fraud.
I agree with your points above yet I consider them circumstantial.

Gene
Working Model 2DImage
[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.
User avatar
ken_behrendt
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3487
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:45 am
Location: new jersey, usa
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by ken_behrendt »

Ralph wrote:
I do not believe there was a novel power source. My reasoning is, such a power source would have been a much more important discovery and money maker standing on its own without the wheel.
I do not believe there was a conventional power source present either. Although I think I remember reading that when Gottried Liebnitz first heard of Bessler's invention, he was convinced that it was powered by some sort of hidden source of compressed air. In other words, Liebnitz thought that the wheels were pneumatically powered. He quickly changed his mind after personally examining one of them. Again Leibnitz was one of the scientific "giants" of the Age of Reason and almost on a par with Sir Isaac Newton himself.


Gene...

Yes, all of the "evidence" we have concerning Bessler's inventions is, in the final analysis, merely "circumstantial". Even today, with all of our scientific training and equipment, experts can be fooled, frauds perpetrated, and scientific "data" fabricated. I think I have even seen some skeptic website's wherein Bessler and his inventions are compared to those of John W. Keely, a notorious hoaxer from the 19th century.

I think when it comes to Bessler, each of must thrust our "gut" instinct about the man, his story, and the inventions. Hopefully, in the future more information, not previously known about, will come to light that will help reinforce the validity of his claims.


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, &#969;, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle &#966;, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(&#8730;2)&#960;d&#969;cos&#966;
User avatar
Stewart
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1352
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am
Location: Devon, England

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by Stewart »

On the discussion about John's AP (Mike Senior's) translations, I'd just like to say that I think they have done a good job with what is a difficult piece of material. However, I think there is a need for both styles of translation on AP. A less literal version reads much better and conveys the Bessler story to the greatest audience, something John & Mike have achieved very well; a more literal translation is useful to the more serious Bessler researcher who is interested in every little detail and clue etc. When I study parts of AP and present my findings here, I see it as just filling in the small cracks of Mike's translation and expanding on areas that would require more research than Mike would probably have had the time or interest to pursue. I do respect Mike's superior knowledge and experience, and I don't want people to think that I don't when I post my own research into Bessler's writings. It's a shame Mike doesn't have internet access so that he could join in our discussions; it would be great to talk to him. However, John tells me he's a bit of a technophobe and doesn't use computers (lucky him, lol).

I am delighted to hear there is a German chap (Denis) who has taken a keen interest in Bessler and lives at the heart of Bessler country. He'll be a great help in our research efforts. I wonder whether Rainer, being a German speaker, would be able to act as mediator for us? Are you still out there Rainer? Funnily enough, during my research into Bessler's organs (the musical variety) for the topic I created the other day, I discovered that there was an organ built by Bessler in the Invalidhaus chapel in Karlshafen. I had got the impression that it still existed and I was going to post about it in the organ craft topic to see if John knew anything about it and if not to see if there was anyone from the local area who might be able to go and investigate. I was thinking it would be great to see some of Bessler's handiwork, even if it didn't necessarily help us in solving the Wheel. It would be nice to hear what Denis can tell us about it and what happened to it. I also have read, as John mentioned earlier, that they regard Bessler as a charlatan in Karlshafen and so they probably wouldn't have thought twice about removing and destroying the organ. :( I look forward to hearing more from Denis.

All the best
Stewart
User avatar
John Collins
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:33 am
Location: Warwickshire. England
Contact:

re: Helpful Websites!

Post by John Collins »

It's good to hear from you again Stewart.

I'm in touch with a guy in Karlshafen who was helping me a few years ago in his role as consultant to the local municipal tourist board - and then we lost touch as his contract ended and he moved away from the town. It was he who did the search for Bessler's grave and finally concluded that is now covered in tarmac and forms a carpark. He kindly sent me photos of the car park. When I visited the town I tried to visit the Invalidhause as it is one of the larger buildings in the town and is opposite a rather crude wall-plaque of Bessler, but it was closed that day and I was unable to return on that trip as I had a number of other appointments to keep.

Anyway I have prepared a list of questions for him which he may be able to help with and I'll ask him about the organ and I'll post anything I get to know.

John Collins
Post Reply