Oxygons Earth Day PMM

[Oxygon]

I wanted to let this idea go... on earth day because I think its simplicity makes it undeniable...

Basically its a filled water wheel with simple bellows along its outer rim and the water excess outside the wheel causes an imbalance of lets say 56Lbs of weight onto an 8lb lower bellow... 7 to 1 ratio... or something like that...

feedback...?

you could even rotate the guide to suit the wanted imbalance...

[ovyyus]

Hi Oxygon, thanks for posting your design - my input as requested:

When the bellows at the bottom are compressed into the guide and the bellows at the top expand open, a volume of water is lifted. The total overbalancing force will be exactly equal and opposite to this required lifting force, and therefore no movement will result.

PS: I think your drawing is incorrect - the bottom bellows are shown at a point half closed and therefore, water being virtually incompressible, the bellows at the top should be drawn half open.

[jim_mich]

Oxygon,
At first glance I say that the weight on the bottom bellows is much more than the seven pounds. It would be all of the weight of the whole column of water above it. So the bottom bellows lifts a column of water of many pounds for a distance that the bellows moves. In theory is should balance out against the many weights that are dropping. We all keep looking for something unusual that goes against main stream theory.

[Oxygon]

Ok, I can see your point (I dont agree with it...)

At first glance I say that the weight on the bottom bellows is much more than the seven pounds. It would be all of the weight of the whole column of water above it.

I dont think so, the only weight to be considered is the water weight outside the wheel... imo...

the bottom bellows are shown at a point half closed and therefore, water being virtually incompressible, the bellows at the top should be drawn half open.

The water being incompressible doesn't compress... as one bellow is compressed the one on top is filled... the below you see under compression on the bottom at a little bit past 6 exchanges mass into the bellow past twelve... (give me a break man, it was a quick image...)

ALL the mass inside the circle remains the same... 0% bearing on imbalance... its just the bottom bellow and top that exchange mass... the open bellows cause the imbalance... more weight on one side... Soo many pounds on one side... none on the other......

[ovyyus]

...the below you see under compression on the bottom at a little bit past 6 exchanges mass into the bellow past twelve... (give me a break man, it was a quick image...)

Oxygon, if you draw your diagram properly and calculate volume and mass moved within the system you will understand what you are lifting, where you are lifting it to, and what force is required to do that. I stand by my above assessment. The devil is in the details and more often than not an error in a diagram reflects an error in thinking.

[jim_mich]

I used my cad program and started with a 21 inch radius wheel with 16 bellows. This makes the sides of the bellows 8.194 long. I made the bellows at 60 degrees when open. 8 pounds of water is 221.6066 cu.in. and each bellows is 62.4603 sq.in. area cross section so the thickness would be 7.6226 in order to weigh 8 pounds. This makes the height distance from the very top point to the midpoint of the bottom bellow side to be 50.20 which makes the water pressure 1.80456 PSI. The surface area of the bellows is 62.455 sq.in. which makes the total pressure on the bellows to be 112.703 pounds. Since the bellows are levers the pressure would be half or about 56.351 pounds which just about equals the total 7 bellows times 8 pounds which is 56 pounds.

This is a real rough calculation and doesn't consider a number of small factors but it does illustrate that the pressure on that one bottom bellows is about equal to the weight of the seven out of balance bellows. When all the adding and subtracting is done these type of wheel always seem to balance.

[scott]

Hi Oxy and everyone else,

Here is my response as requested. First of all, Oxy, I greatly appreciate you sharing your ideas freely like this. Especially when you so clearly believe they will work. It really shows that you are in it for all the right reasons and you should be highly commended by everyone here for that.

I also believe this idea will not work. But every idea that is shared here serves a useful purpose by increasing the dialog and overall understanding between members. By sharing an idea that doesn't work, you are also sharing "why" that idea doesn't work, which helps others focus their own efforts better.

The reason I don't think this one will work was very well expressed already by Bill and Jim. Basically it is because the bellows on the left side together will not have enough leverage to lift the top water column straight up. I base this opinion on a very large amount of time spent personally experimenting with designs based on this same idea; stationary ramps strategically placed to lift weights on the perimeter of a wheel into the proper position to achieve overbalance. With enough experimentation, I'm sure just about anyone will come to the same conclusion.

And Bill is absolutely right about the importance of the details. I could make most of my own failed designs work if I could just fudge a degree or two here or there.

But again, I commend your spirit and very much hope you will keep up the good work. If this problem is ever solved, I truly believe it will be along this path. By that I do not mean this particular type of design. I mean through collaborative effort and peer review within a community based on trust and respect.

Best,
Scott

[ken_behrendt]

Oxy...

Your "Earth Day Water Wheel" is, indeed, interesting and unique...I do not think that I have seen anything like it before. Unfortunately, however, I must agree with the consensus here that it is unworkable.

Your design is over balanced and would be expected to rotate CCW. However, just as soon as the bottom bellows contacts that ramp, a CW counter torque will arise that will bring it to a stop.

While it is possible to fake hydraulic and pneumatic systems to a very limited degree with WM2D, I decided to make a simple mechanical analog of your design and then test it to see how it would perform. That model is attached below.

As you can see, in my version, the water filled bellows are replaced with simple 1 lb levers that are diametrially interconnected with rigid rods. As a lever contacts the bottom edge of the ramp it will be lifted toward the wheel's axle and the opposite lever will then be forced up and away from the axle.

Upon simulation, there was a spurt of motion as the levers shifted from their neutral positions. However, as can be seen from the rotation graph, after that there was no motion.

Well, what I modeled is not exactly what you suggest, but it's close enough to convince me that your design would not be feasible.


ken

[scott]

There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right; they're the aperture to finding out what's right.

[scott]

The more original a discovery, the more obvious it seems afterwards.

[Sevich]

..

[Oxygon]

I don't think the evaluation "ken_behrendt" ran thru his program was compadible...

We are dealing with "mass vs. no mass"

not shifting "solid weights"...

we know solid weights wont work... (so far)

I stand by that.

[Jeff L.]

I'm wondering if it would make any difference to have the wheel partially filled with liquid rather than completely filled as depicted in the diagrams...

Jeff L.

[Oxygon]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by partially?

The main water mass of the wheel as depicted is simply a universal hub...

I suppose I should've mentioned the main wheels inner circle as depicted shows a "thin hub" and not a giant heavy mass of water...

as imagined...

here is an image which I find hard to believe wouldn't work...

Using a simple "Universal Conduit"...

[ovyyus]

Oxygon, you're still using an incorrect drawing. IMO, if you take the time to make accurate drawings, so you can calculate the actual volumes and forces, then you can know the outcome of this particular design.