Twin exchange rotors.

[LustInBlack]

Heh.. I'm thinking about something and wished to share with you.

Imagine 2 superposed rotors with 4 weights. Each are 45 degrees apart, so
you see 8 weights equaly spaced when looking at it.

The 2 rotors spin in opposite rotation direction. 1 CW, 1 CCW .

When you put a motor on each rotor they act as if the weights were colliding in each other, and as if they were changing direction to go back to their originating point as so on . (Easy simulation) ...

Now, why am I saying all this ?! ..

Let's suppose you remove 1 weight oppposite from each rotor.
The rotor will turn in opposite direction to get back to their balance point.

I am looking into a mech that will exchange weights from one rotor to the other, as to create a constant weight "hole" in the rotors.

I am not sure presently if I should use odd or even number of weights, looks like odd number of weights will be better ..

And I'm not sure of the synchronism for that mech, it appears quite complicated to imagine two wheels working together in opposition and superposition .. So I am calculating this at the moment..

[ken_behrendt]

LIB wrote:

I am looking into a mech that will exchange weights from one rotor to the other, as to create a constant weight "hole" in the rotors.

This an interesting concept, but the problem I can immediately see with it is that if the "holes" created by the exchanging of weights are diametically opposed to each other, the the CG of all of the weights will still be at the axle.

You need a system that will create two holes that are on the same side of the two wheels axle and, of course, the system must work without motors moving the wheels.

Good luck with this concept, I look forward to seeing what you can come up with.


ken

[JuddBrooks]

Hi Lib,
I am trying to get this straight. :( :) You said
[/quote]I am looking into a mech that will exchange weights from one rotor to the other, as to create a constant weight "hole" in the rotors.[quote]

Ok. 2 wheels(rotors), 4 weights each, running CW and CCW in synchro.

1. When you 'exchange' a weight from Front wheel to Back wheel, does that make '5 weights' on back wheel 'at that moment'.

2. OR...are you starting with 4 slots with 3 weights on each rotor leaving a 'spot' to exchange into.

3, Or do you intend to have 'spots/slots' in between the 4 normal slots to drop weight into (meaning 5 on a wheel temporarily)

4. Or does the 'mechanism' your designing include a 'landing/holding area' where the weight 'sits' for a 'moment' while waiting for a 'slot' to come around into proper position on the 'receiving' wheel/rotor?

Am I close? lol :)
Judd :)

[LustInBlack]

For further discussion, Front Wheel is Called F, Back wheel is called B.
F rotates CW.
B rotates CCW.

Ken : Of course the motors are there to show part of the principle.. ;]

Judd,

You are definitely close!

Btw, your private emails show me that you also understood the principle for my immersion wheel ..


Judd and Ken :
I am not decided yet for the weight exchange management..

First thought, was 2 holes for 'keeling' effect to happen.
F hole could be at (10.5, 9, 7.5[with inertia]); or maybe top and bottom too ?
B hole could be at (1.5, 3, 4.5[with inertia])

Then, 2 weights shifting at the same time .

Inertia drives the wheels to the current Hole by superposition.
*Remember, 2 wheels counter-rotating! Align weight with hole.
Hole filled with new weights.

** I can see a problem, that's where I thought that the number of weights shifting will change the wheel behavior.
2 weights will create oscillation
1 weight might be a better solution !?
3 weights ?!

I'll come up with a better plan .

But that is a very very crude explanation of what I have in mind..
It is more complex than that I am afraid, but I will sleep on it tonight, that will bring me more ideas! ..


However, there is a similarity in this design and my immersion idea.. Judd found it I believe ..

Can others see it too !? .. Maybe it will help understanding the previous ..

[LustInBlack]

One important clarification...

Ken : I am not sure of how you see the wheel, so I'll make this a bit clearer, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my description .


The 2 wheels will not be linked together with a gear system or anything else.
They are 2 independant wheels, however, the exchange mech will always provide 1 hole in each wheel so they always turn in their assigned direction.

The synchronisation could be based on a dynamic braking system that will slow down a faster rotating disc, to keep them in synch.

[I don't like gears]...

8]

[LustInBlack]

Update .

The wheels will be linked together 1:1 counter-rotating.

This drawing explain the concept.

Maybe not, but let's see what you come up with.

[KAS]

Lustinblack,

I think I have got my head around this now which I find interesting.

The biggest problem you will face is the exchange mechanism
which I think would need to be anchored separately from the counter turning wheels and set in the area on the rotation that the exchange is required.
This (exchange mechanism) would undoubtedly produce a small amount of counter torque or slow down but may still be feasible.

One method for weight exchange could be a type of lance and hoop type system. This would work in a similar way to how a knight gathers hoops with a lance in a jousting tournament.

Each weight could contain both a hoop and lance section which in normal rotation would be directed away from a pick up or drop angle. Then (with the help of the external exchange mech) the lance could be directed at the designated point in the rotation.

Just a thought!

Have you thought of anything similar?

Kas

[ken_behrendt]

LIB wrote with respect to the weight exchanging concept:

...let's see what you come up with.

All I come up with is this. Unless a weight is returned to its starting wheel at a higher elevation than it had as the exchange to the other wheel took place, then the system will not be outputting any energy which can perform useful work in the evironment. In fact, unless this condition is met, the device will not even be able to sustain its own motion.

Wish I could be more optimistic.



ken

[LustInBlack]

Maybe you are right. I thought about that one too ..


However, when I switch the weight, the wheel gets more momentum, because there is a loss of weight in that particular direction, so the wheel wants to turn more!!!

The weight is shifted to the back wheel. At the same time another weight adds to the front wheel .

[Only thing I hope will not be a problem, is when the weight change direction .. I'm thinking about a solution]

In WM2D, put 4 weights on a wheel, distributed evenly. Remove the
weight at 9.
Simulate.

Reset.

Set the weight at 6 to 0.1 . Observe where the wheel stop ..

The idea, is that, there are no weights on the top of the wheel. So the weights don't need to make a full turn. They need to do between 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn before shift.


My idea will be built, I am currently in development of a 3D model that will help it's construction..

The wheel could easily fit inside a drum without external mech.

The mech is inside each weights and the weights are on the rim .

Another idea of my own, will provide some timing variability for the weight to reach shift points.

I could even install a cissor mech that would move the weight near center on lift .... But I don't want to do that..


Another example I just thought about ..

Instead of adding weight on one side. Remove them.

Example: A Water wheel works because you add weight on one side.
Let's say the wheel is always full of weight, remove one side of it's weight. It will turn .

Put x number of weights on a wheel, let's say 11 [One weight is removed at 9 o'clock].. Each time a weight pass 9, you remove it .

The wheel will turn, until the fuel is used up, the fuel is the weight hole. The inverse of adding weight ..

Well, why I say that?!. Because I think it's easier to move Empty space. 8]




Each time a weight pass

[LustInBlack]

Alright, take a look at that.. This is a Script I made to show the concept.

You'll see that the wheel does turn.
But it's true there is no mech that gets energy from the wheel etc..

Velocity is 50 RPM ..

;]

If this is Bessler secret, then, it's free..



Load file..

Run this Script :

Sub Main()
Dim Doc as WMDocument
Dim I as Integer
Dim A as Integer
Dim W(4) as WMBody
Dim LimUp as WMBody
Dim LimDown as WMBody
Dim LimRight as WMBody
Set Doc = WM.ActiveDocument

Set W(0) = Doc.Body("W1")
Set W(1) = Doc.Body("W2")
Set W(2) = Doc.Body("W3")
Set W(3) = Doc.Body("W4")
Set LimUp = Doc.Body("LimitUp")
Set LimDown = Doc.Body("LimitDown")
Set LimRight = Doc.Body("LimitRight")

If W(0) is not Nothing then

For A = 0 to 120

Doc.Run 5
For I = 0 to 3

If (W(I).PY.Value >= LimUp.PY.Value) then
W(I).Mass.Value = 0.1
W(I).Radius.Value = 10
Else
W(I).Mass.Value = 5
W(I).Radius.Value = 40
End IF

If (W(I).PY.Value < LimDown.PY.Value) and (W(I).PX.Value > LimRight.PX.Value) then
W(I).Mass.Value = 5
W(I).Radius.Value = 40
End If

Next I
Next A


end if


End Sub

[LustInBlack]

KAS :

Sorry for the late reply.

I have a very good idea for the shifting mech, that I keep secret for now.
There will be no movement of weight, but counter-torque due to direction change.

I think it will not be that much of a problem.

Btw, I am working on a 3D model to explain the principle and help build it.
IF it works, it will be easy to understand with the 3D model.
However, I am a novice in 3D so I learn by doing it and it's long ..

Now, I think this is Bessler wheel.
The hammer sound could be the weight exchange and direction change.

Wheel is empty on one side and full on the other.

Weights act in pair.

Turns at 50 rpm [Probably].

Everybody looked at it for 300 years (Failure) but didn't find it. Because what is killing a wrong design is what is feeding my wheel .. [A wheel that failed, turned the other way around and oscillated to it's death]

It matches with the stencil drawing .. .

etc etc..


I could be totally wrong, but I hope not.

8]

[LustInBlack]

I think there is some confusion with the WM2D file + Script.

DON'T hit RUN in WM2D .. Load the script editor, paste the script and hit
RUN in the SCRIPT EDITOR! ..

[LustInBlack]

Here is a preview of my 3d model ..

It's not complete, some things to adjust .

Now, people should start to understand what I am talking about ..

Hope so ..


2 Wheels counter-rotate.

The green weights that look to be connected to the 2 wheels at the same time, are actually exchanged between the 2 wheels at these positions.

No weight will ever be to the top of the wheel.

The wheels are cambered.