Simpson Baton Gravity Motor looks amazing !

[hartiberlin]

Wow,
here is now a very clever new unbalanced wheel design !
This surely has to work !?

Please can somebody with advanced WM2D knowledge
try to simulate this one ?
Many thanks.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1620.0.html

Regards, Stefan.

[LustInBlack]

NICE!

It's something I will try in WM2D .

However, I am on another design of my own that looks quite promising .

[cw]

Well, I'm confused. There doesn't seem to be a GIF or anything in the message which links to the animation. Was it removed for some reason?

[LustInBlack]

You need to be registered .

I attach the gif

Damn, attachment too big.. I can't shrink animated gif..

[LustInBlack]

I am posting a variation of the design. . Maybe it will be simpler to isolate the arms and the weights as 2 systems.

I wonder however if I don't change the base principle.. but it may be something to try also .


The balls are weights. 4 arms that weights almost nothing on each wheels. And other arms on the chain that weights almost nothing.

weight exchange when arms of wheel/chain interfere.

I believe it would be simpler mechanically.

However, I have another idea for the original idea that might work. I hope simpson will come here ..


[Well thinking about it, I believe the original design is better]

[ken_behrendt]

No, this will not work. There are many variations of this device around and none of them work either (the most recent one to appear on this board was the "AvalancheDrive").

The problem? At first glance one sees the preponderance of mass on the left side of the pulleys and believes that each pulley must experience a big net CCW torque that will surely provide continuous motion. However, the same number of weights must rise on the right side of pulleys per unit time as descend on the left side. This means that the weights on the right side must ascend much faster than the left side ones descend. It turns out that this difference in vertical velocities means that, per unit time, the right side weights will gain exactly as much gravitational potential energy as is lost by the dropping left side weights. There will be no net loss of gravitational potential energy per unit of time and, without that, there will be no net driving torque and the device will not be capable of performing external work. In fact, if constructed, the device will be in stationary at all times.

Yes, I know it seems impossible, but it's true.


It seems like the Simpson household is fond of building perpetual motion devices. Late last year/early this year, I think a formerly active member, Ed, introduced us to another Simpson device that was designed by Bart's little sister. I went to the trouble of modeling that one as best I could and it was a non-runner (see below). So is the presently presented device.


ken

[jim_mich]

Ok, this looks interesting. Everything above the center of the top circle is balanced (on average). The same is true for everything below the center of the bottom circle. So that leaves the middle sections. There are ten 'weights' on the left exerting a downward force. Two weights on the right side are being rotated upward at all times. If we assume that each circle has a radius of one unit then the weights have a length of ten units and the center to center distance of the circles would be 12 units. This puts the center of gravity of the swinging weights out at 6 units radius. The average torque needed to swing a weight up around a circle is 2 / Pi times that needed to just raise a weight so the average torque on one circle on the right side is 2 / Pi x Wt x 6 radius. Assuming the Wt of each weight equals one then the average torque on the right side would equal 7.6394 compared with a torque of 9 on the left. But wait, we've made an error. The quantity of weights on the left is not correct. The correct spacing between weights would cause a different quantity of weights to be on the left. Each weight must be spaced at 1/4 of the circumference of the circle which would be a spacing of Pi x 2 / 4 = 1.5708. Divide this into the height of 12 between centers and you get a quantity of 7.6394 weights on the left. This exactly balances the torque on the right. It also causes a problem of synchronization between weights and wheels. With the proper dimensions they could be synchronized but they will still exactly balance.

[mickegg]

Jim

If the weights are being transferred at the 45° position and no overlap on the arms won't the distance between the circle centres be 14.14 units?

Agree this is the ten spaces for the weights at ¼ circle though.

Just wondered if it upset your calculations

Mick

Edit: After another look make that 9 divisions on the left (14.14/½pi)
Is that 10 weights though?

[LustInBlack]

Jim, how about my variation !? ..

I don't lift the weight as far as the original design ..

The arms do exchange the weight at 45 deg at the right .


I find the design quite brilliant, in that it exchange width with weight.


I think we must pursue a bit in that direction, think about it .. We could use a jack mech to reach the top wheel to exchange the weight at that position..

I think there is something to it, maybe in this form it will not work, but I am sure it can be fixed.

[jim_mich]

You can pick any dimensions or configurations that you wish but the bottom line is all will balance. This is why the scientific community says that perpetual motion gravity wheels while never work.

You might call me an optimistic skeptic. I know the cold hard facts that simple overbalancing will never work. This is why Ken's marathon approach searching for a way to overbalance his wheels will never bear fruit.

But I'm also optimistic that there may be a way around this seemingly impossible barrier. The only possibility of success would be a wheel that uses dynamic forces in some way to keep the weights continually out of balance. After eliminating all that is impossible the only thing left is to use centrifugal force to move the weights into an out of balanced condition. Bessler in describing his wheel said, "the inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement." Now just what did he mean by "gain force from their own swinging"? What force becomes present when a weight swings? The only answer is centrifugal force. We must learn how to harness centrifugal force to lift weights into an out of balanced condition so that gravity can then turn the wheel.

Don't fight centrifugal force like an enemy but treat it like a dear friend that will help you lift the weights.

[LustInBlack]

Jim, on the contrary, I like your way of thinking ..


I have a suggestion for the weight swing.

A weight that is falling, will fall at the rate dictated by gravity.

This is my idea of swinging weights, can you tell me what is wrong, in your opinion, with it!? . [Suppose speed of wheels is controled so that Centrifugal force don't prevent weight fall]

This is a design I juste cannot forget, I am always upgrading it in hope I will fix all the problems I can find.

[edit: oops, there is a stop missing on each wheel, it was for testing purpose, suppose it's there, if you find the missing spots.]

Thanks

[jim_mich]

A weight that is falling, will fall at the rate dictated by gravity.

A weight that is falling, will accelerate at a rate dictated by gravity. In other words if it is already falling at a certain speed than gravity will make it fall faster still. In earth atmosphere an upper limit is reached where air resistance matches any further acceleration and so an object reaches a terminal velocity. A feather has a very low terminal velocity while a stone has a high terminal velocity. With current gravity theory and with no air resistance there's no maximum speed. (With my Ether Energy theory of gravity there would be a maximum speed, but that's a whole different topic.)

Suppose speed of wheels is controlled so that Centrifugal force don't prevent weight fall

Don't fight CF (by controlling wheel speed) but encourage it to do its thing. The faster the wheel turns the more CF is produced. Use that extra CF to move the weights faster so they can make the move in the shorter time that they have due to the wheels increased speed. Stop thinking statically. Start thinking dynamically.

[LustInBlack]

Yes that's the way I think, but my model don't want CF, however, I will think about a way to use it.. Thanks for that.. But back to the question, do you think this design would be usefull?!

Simulations showed that the 2 wheels will turn.

By dephasing another set of wheels and linking the system together, I believe this would work . But as CF will increase with speed, the weights will be stuck on their stops and not fall .. But, as you say, I should use that to my advantage .

I am curious as to what model you are working on . . .

[LustInBlack]

Jim, and others..

Just for the sake of discussion ..

What would happen if we concentrated the weight at the tip of the Arms!? .. Let's say, the tip that is near to the chain on the falling side?! ..

Let's put it that way, a sliding weight that rest on the tip (right tip on falling side).

It would lock into place, and lift on the bottom wheel (being at the edge of the wheel, so it does Not need much torque to lift)..
then, the arm would be catched by the top wheel, which there would need more torque to lift.

Above 3 on the top wheel, the sliding weight would slide back to the edge ot the circle, closing the loop.

There, it would already need less energy to lift than the original design .

Another Idea I had, would be to spread the weight with many sections on the arms ..


I attach a picture with the correct geometry of the wheel .. The weights on the chain are at their appropriate position .

[Gravmaster2000]

CF can be controlled very easy...just use 2 wheels, separated by a belt/
chain, whatever (think a bicycle chain) no matter what the run speed is, there
is NO CF on the straight parts! If the straight part is made vertical, weights can be shifted to your heart content!