Gain force from their own swinging.

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jim_mich
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Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by jim_mich »

This is a continuation of discussion from this thread.
Bessler wrote: the inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement.
Now just what did he mean by "gain force from their own swinging"? What force becomes present when a weight swings? I say the only answer is centrifugal force.
Ken wrote:What could "gain force from their own swinging" mean? Lots of things. Bessler was working and writing in an era where the concepts of mechanics were still a bit fuzzy. And, of course, the fact that he was a "hands on" type craftsman rather than a academician certainly did not contribute to his being able to accurate describe a mechanical system. He may have been using the word "force" to mean "torque". As far as "swinging" is concerned, that could simply refer to revolution of the weights about a wheel's axis. Or, it could refer to the small amount of shifting individual weights underwent as they traveled around the circumference of the wheel.
Both torque and force have similar meanings. Torque means force around a pivot point. This brings us back to swinging weights. By "revolution of the weights about a wheel's axis" I assume you mean just the simple rotation of the wheel and weights while the weights just ride along and don't move. This makes no sense because it clearly would not power a wheel. Therefore we are back to weights that swinging and the force/torque derived from such. Swinging and shifting have similar meanings. The easiest way to allow a weight to shift while still maintaining control is to have it attached to a pivot point. And so we are back to swinging weights and that force which is gained by their swinging. To me this is clearly referring to centrifugal force. Bessler did not use the word "centrifugal" but it is clear that this is what he was talking about.

In another place Bessler talks about one lifting four and 4 lifting 16. This is the exact ratio of centrifugal force produced when a weight swings freely a half turn from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock. So again Bessler talked about centrifugal force.
Ken wrote:I really would like to believe that the "CF approach" has merit, but there are a variety of factors that discourage me from adopting this approach. Mainly, there is the sticky matter of Bessler's earlier one-directional wheels being self-starting from any position. If he was, as you suggest, "harnessing" CF, then it would seem that he would have had to have always given his wheels an initial push to get them rotating. Yet, there is no suggestion of this in the Bessler literature.
Bessler's later two-directional wheels require that initial push to start them. They required a minimum rotational velocity in order to do their thing. This is a clear indication that centrifugal force was involved.

This leaves us with only the "sticky matter" of Bessler's one-directional wheels being self starting. I don't see this as a problem. But explaining why it's not a problem becomes quit complicated. I started to write an explanation then I erased it as it was too long and complicated. Simply stated the out of balance is left over from the swing of the weights as the wheel was decelerated and stopped. When the wheel was released this initial out of balance started the wheel rotating. As the wheel reached a minimum speed centrifugal force reset the weights out of balance again and the wheel then increased to maximum speed. Without any of this left over 'out of balance' condition I feel the wheel would have needed a small push to start it going again. The two-directional wheels were made differently so that when they were stopped they became balanced.

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by mickegg »

I agree with Jim, I think Bessler was definately refering to CF. and it
was this force that powered the mechanism

My own line of research at the moment is focused directly on the
descriptions by Bessler. It appears he made more than one reference
to the speed of the weights and was clearly impressed by their motion:

"These parts are enclosed in a case and are coordinated with one another so that they not only never again reach an equilibrium (or point of rest) for themselves but incessantly seek with their admirably fast swing to move and drive on the axis of their vortices "

Could it be that the weights were swinging(or revolving) faster than the wheel rotation in order for this observation?

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by LustInBlack »

Okay, if CF is the force at play. How can it be harnessed.. !?

For it to be harnessed, you must find a way to control CF ..


Maybe two rotating discs that turns at different speed (1 fast, 1 slow) that exchange weights.

What else!?

A rope with a weight that wind around the axle?!..
To release it to original position, there would be an indentation in the axle.. ?

Another, a very very fast rotating disc inside the wheel that would rotate 100 times faster then the big wheel.. ?.

Or, CF driving a Lever, Gravity orienting that lever in the same direction independant of wheel position, lever rotating with wheel..

?
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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by mickegg »

Okay, if CF is the force at play. How can it be harnessed.. !?
Maybe simple leverage to move the fulcrum on a balance..?

Or acting across the scissor mechanism (MT38) to give amplified
movement across the diameter..?

CF was at work in the wheels, I'm sure Bessler harnessed it and
put it to good use.

In the previous quote...."to move and drive on the axis of their vortices" if Bessler was referring to the axis of the weights
and not the wheel, it sounds like the old steam engine governor
movement

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by Michael »

The only thing centrifugfal force is good for is keeping something pinned to an inner rim by applying pressure to it. When that thing moves, no matter what that thing is centrifugal force disappears, and only movement can do work. I'd really like an example that shows otherwise.
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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by jim_mich »

There are many interesting situations that can arise when using swinging weights upon a rotating wheel. Note that I said weights (plural), more than one weight. And there must be weights on the other side of the wheel else the wheel would be very unbalanced. This gives us "a pair of pairs" of weights. Interconnect them so that one dancing pair on one side torques against the dancing pair on the other side. When one weight swings then all four weights will swing.

Centrifugal force acts to pull the weights outward from the center of a swing arc. When a weight swings on a rotating wheel that arc is a complex curve consisting of both the wheel's rotation and the weight's swing.

There are two categories of torque we must look at. One is the torque upon the wheel that would cause it to rotate. The other torque is the torque that tries to make the weights swing. I feel this is the more important torque.

If a weights pendulum rod is in-line with the center of swing then CF will not produce any torque around the pendulum's pivot point. Whereas if a weights pendulum rod is at a right angle to a line that runs from the center of swing through the pivot point then all of the CF will produce maximum torque around the pendulum's pivot point.

If a weight swings backward around a rotating wheel then it produces almost no CF. Whereas if it swings forward around a rotating wheel then is produces much CF.

Comparing two equal weights traveling equal velocities and one is force to pivot around a small radius and the other around a large radius, the small radius will produce more centrifugal force.

Bessler talks of weights exchanging places. (I've not been able to find the exact quote.) Look at the toys page. One hammer swings up at the other swings down. Bessler drew two sets of these toys. Why? Again a pair of pairs. If you position the hammer guys in a certain way on a wheel then CF will lift one hammer as it drives the other hammer down. Then CF will lift the second hammer as it drives the first one down. Only when both hammers are at a halfway point will CF be equal. But then gravity is also present as the wheel rotates so the weights never reach equilibrium. Note that one toy has fat guys and the other has skinny guys. Now toss all four guys/weights into a pot and stir. Reposition them somewhat and you might have weights that pump themselves in and out while producing a continuous out of balance condition that rotates the wheel.

So far I've NOT been able to prove if it would work. But I do know that the pumping weights don't slow the wheel down and DON'T get pinned to the outside by CF.


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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by Jon J Hutton »

This may be a tough question to pen but here it goes.

Once a pendulum is released it makes a set number of occilations until it comes to a rest. I do not know of another better demonstration of changing pe to ke and over again than a pendulum......or is there. What about a three dimentional pendulum like the attached drawing. I need wm3d to answer this question. I guess the drawing could be called a spiral pendulum. assuming you raise a pendulum 3 inches and let it die, or you spin the spiral pendulum so the weight is raised 3 inches because of cf and then let it come to rest. So which would cycle longer, and which would be easier to pump to keep running

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by rlortie »

Jon,

What I see here is a one legged fly ball governor.

It will not cycle or pump while being rotated, all it will do is give you a gauge to measure CF, the faster you spin it the farther out it will extend.

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by Jon J Hutton »

Ok,

Let me rephrase, which would stay in motion longer before coaming to a complete rest.

Yes it is a one legged fly ball governor no that you mention it.
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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by rlortie »

Jon,

I would think that the pendulum not spinning would oscillate or swing longer than it would spin and not oscillate. In a spinning mode everything is against you. friction air and CF.

In a oscolating mode you have a chance to get back some of the kinetic energy on each swing.

The most basic type of pendulum is the simple pendulum. In a simple pendulum, which oscillates back and forth in a single plane, all the mass of the device can be considered to reside entirely in the suspended object. The motion of pendulums such as those in clocks closely approximates the motion of a simple pendulum. A spherical pendulum is not confined to a single plane, and as a result its motion can be much more complicated than the motion of a simple pendulum.

The principle of the pendulum was discovered by Italian physicist and astronomer Galileo, who established that the period for the back-and-forth oscillation of a pendulum of a given length remains the same, no matter how large its arc, or amplitude. (If the amplitude is too large, however, the period of the pendulum is dependent on the amplitude.) This phenomenon is called isochronism, and Galileo noted its possible applications in timekeeping.

Don't bother with a Foucault type pendulum, you are to close to the Equater! :-)

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by ken_behrendt »

It seems that the approaches to seeking a possible solution to the Bessler mystery have now polarized themselves into two distinct camps: the "dynamic" approach which postulates that CF plays a critical role in maintaining the imbalance that drives a wheel and the "static" approach which sees CF as a detriment to maintaining the chronic imbalance of a wheel that provides its driving torque.

Trying to decide which approach has more evidence for its existence is no easy task due, mainly, to the ambiguity of Bessler's writings and the only fragmentary third party descriptions of the wheels' performances that we have currently.

However, despite this schism, there does not seem to be any disagreement that the torque which drives a one directional wheel must arise from the chronic maintenance of a state of imbalance between the ascending and descending sides.

Unfortunately, without a working Bessler wheel to study, ultimate verification of which approach is the correct one must await someone's successful duplication of a Bessler wheel. In the long run, which approach proves to be the correct one is immaterial. What really counts is that we finally know the secret of his inventions so that, if possible, future inventors can build upon that base of knowledge as they attempt to improve their power outputs to make them into significant sources of "free" energy.


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by bluesgtr44 »

The interpretation of "gaining force from their own swinging" is not in DT. The interpretation of this segment seems to be "a small imressed force"...so, it appears to be an interpretation issue.

Would it not be centrepidal force instead of centrifugal force? Anyway, I'll try and go to the German and Latin portions of this and see what I can find as far as interpretation goes....


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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by bluesgtr44 »

OK, a quick search and this is what might be the sticking point. I came across the word schwunges in the original German part of the book. this is interpretted as...get this! Flywheel!...Are we really confused now?


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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by jim_mich »

Flywheel makes sense. A flywheel is a device that stores and returns inertial momentum energy. A weight swinging does the same thing.

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re: Gain force from their own swinging.

Post by hopeful »

Steve,

This was a post in your thread a while back. "The weights gain force from their own swinging..." should instead read "The weights gain force from their own motion/momentum..." John Collins posted about this enhanced translation in 2004.

Unable to quote the original page#, but Bessler wrote that "flywheels were not to be sniffed at."

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