Bessler's Secret Force

[graham]

Hi Steve, the more I think about it the more I like it. This preloaded condition could explain the rapid acceleration of the wheel.
With a bi directional wheel it gets a bit more tricky though because they had to be given a start in the desired direction.

Still, a one directional wheel ain't too shabby.

Graham

[Fletcher]

FYI - I went down this path once - you can design a pre-loaded system [essentially you put the weights OOB or store energy in some part of the mech by creating tension or compression] - btw I called it 'activation energy' that was loaded by hand before commencing wheel rotation.

The problem I experienced with this approach was that while it was easy enough to store initial potential energy in the wheel, as it revolved it lost this potential to ordinary losses whilst keeping a constant rpm [that was with no load] - ultimately the wheel ran down its stored energy requiring that it be stopped & reset again - just like a wound mechanism imo.

If you stop the wheel [abruptly] before it has completely run down naturally & then rely on inertia of the weights [for example] to re-cock your mechs, then you will probably find there is insufficient inertia from CF to accomplish the task & get the same potential energy you hand set it to in the first instance - if you let it naturally 'wind down' then there definitely won't be enough CF to reset the potential because the rpm peters out.

Just my thoughts from my own experiences here !

[10x]

Hmm looking at drawings shows pendulums atached to or through the shaft of the wheel.

That connection even shows a lever (or slide) set up involved with it. An offset torque of such would cause the center pole to vibrate (lift).

I doubt that these pendulums are using a slide, but a direct connection hinged ot the point shown in the drawings. What he does not show is what is going on on the inside of: A the main column, or B the inside the wheel.

Such a system would be reversed of the clock spring inparting direct force to the pendulum, Causing reset.

In other words, the pendulum imparting part of its torque to cause reset in the wheel drive device. The motion of the wheel would have to cause a reset of the pendulume swing.

If using a through center shaft connection, friction clutch may have been employed as wheel as possible magnetic connection.

I am even going with a lever spring set up in the wheel attached through the center shaft to the pendulums involved with this.

Folks here keep going with old ideas that if researched can be easily show why such does not work.

Yet when I look at the drawings I see two items that can work independent of the wheel as stated. What we do not see is the drive from this as well as the reset.

One thing that is interesting is how fast must you impart a force so that the inertia of a moving wheel is related to keep it going with a load.

What else can I say. The wheel seems to operate at a set RPM. This is such that the idea of an oscillation converted to rotational is used.

As usual the question is how was this done, and can it bee done with gravity and say springs. I also put in magnetic as it was by his belonging's; of a study and or use to him.

[bluesgtr44]

Hey Graham....

Hi Steve, the more I think about it the more I like it. This preloaded condition could explain the rapid acceleration of the wheel.
With a bi directional wheel it gets a bit more tricky though because they had to be given a start in the desired direction.

I'm not saying it is the right way, just don't count it out yet....I stated the premise wrong before, I reffered to the same part twice...lol. One part is the wheel (flywheel)...the other is the part that expands and contracts...the other is what impresses it to one side or the other. 3 parts and they can all be removed independently...they are not "pinned" together.

Hey Fletch....

The problem I experienced with this approach was that while it was easy enough to store initial potential energy in the wheel, as it revolved it lost this potential to ordinary losses whilst keeping a constant rpm [that was with no load]

Regulate it, Fletch...I'm not saying this is the solution, but I'm trying to find out if there is a medium....so to speak. I can create one hell of an off balance...I cannot, however...maintain it. Uh, reaction forces....we know all about them. So, if we can just have a constant impressed force that we could regulate. So, we have a force....now we need to give this force direction...it has to maintain a direction, right? I would venture the next challenge would be to find a path that would best fit this scenario and still maintain a positive input to the system...in other words, it keeps it to one side....I mean.... I cannot put the matter more clearly...LMAO! (I don't know why I hate that he says that....maybe because he knows he said absolutely nothing.)

From this approach, I am not at the point of thinking about "rise and fall"...I am thinking about "how do I keep the system positive...exteriorly". A stored charge within means absolutely nothing, the charge must be able to be released (exterior) to overcome. So, a positive charge with direction (path) can drive inertia, CF, CpF...etc.
And I have a feeling it doesn't have to be much....

If you stop the wheel [abruptly] before it has completely run down naturally & then rely on inertia of the weights [for example] to re-cock your mechs

Fletch, I could not agree more...this is a loser scenario as you explain. My thinking is a constant pressure opposite the force of gravity...it will have a tolerance for expansion/contraction...but, always positive to side of desired application. (think one way wheel) If one had the ability to impress a constant force on one side of a wheel, he just might have to tie that sucker down....maybe...


Steve

[Stewart]

Okay. What did Bessler mean when he said it was always summer inside his machine?

I think the quote you are looking for is this one from chapter 47 of AP where Bessler is answering questions put to him (it's the 11th question out of 12):

Zum Eilfften werd' ich angehalten
Zu sagen; Ob denn auch im Kalten
(Wenn andre Wercke zugefrier'n)
Ist meine Sache außzuführ'n? &c.
Alhier steckt die Antwort dahinter:
Mit meiner Kunst kan man im Winter
Bey angenehmen Auffenthalt
Arbeiten/ daß es sauss't und knall't;
Wenn andre Künste fast verschneyen/
So laufft die meine fort vom neuen;
Wenn dort der harte Frost einschleich't/
Ists Sommer hier/ das Wetter leucht't.

Here's my translation:

For the eleventh I will be obliged/compelled
to tell; whether also in the cold/frost
(when other works are frozen up)
is my thing to bear out? &c.
Here the answer is behind:
with my art/craft one can work in the Winter
at a pleasant/comfortable dwelling,
it would whizz and bang;
when other arts/crafts are almost covered with snow,
So mine runs away anew;
if a hard frost creeps in there,
it is Summer here, the weather shines.

I've tried to keep it as close to the original text as possible, but if you don't understand what he is saying I can re-phrase it.

My interpretation of this is that Bessler is saying his wheel will work fine in Winter because it can be kept sheltered from the elements unlike other power sources of the time. Water wheels don't work well in Winter as their water supply can freeze, and windmills can suffer from a build up of snow. Bessler's wheel does not require an external supply of water or wind to operate and so can be contained within a sealed building/room and thus be protected from a build up of snow or extreme temperature etc.

Stewart

[Michael]

Thanks Stewart, I didn't get around to trying to find the quotes. What you wrote makes sense.

[bluesgtr44]

Thanks Stewart...I really like the program for this you have come up with. I personally regard your interpretations with the highest regard!


Steve

[arthur]

Okay. What did Bessler mean when he said it was always summer inside his machine?

weights fall back and spring forward?

lol

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Steve,

That is one approach I am investigating. Having the wheel under a load to start with. Basically, I think it could be 3 separate components at work: 1) the wheel itself that we can all see exteriorly...2) the part that is compressed within the wheel to one side and....3) the part that gets compressed between the two.

You are 100% percent correct allow a little corrcetion.
Having the wheel under a load to start with. Basically, I think it could be 3 separate components at work: 1) the wheel itself that we can all see exteriorly...2) the part that is shifted within the wheel to one side and....3) the part that gets compressed between the two.

The one directional wheel is preloaded. Preloaded with a T-pendulum.

the future has begun

Georg

[racer270]

i don't think we can rule anything out, yet....?
imho.....!

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Stewart,

Mit meiner Kunst kan man im Winter
Bey angenehmen Auffenthalt
Arbeiten/ daß es sauss't und knall't;
Wenn andre Künste fast verschneyen

I didn't know, that in earlier times the word Künste is used for energy production.

So I get the origin of my family name now.

the future has begun

Georg Künstler

[Bessler007]

Hello Stewart,

Mit meiner Kunst kan man im Winter
Here's my translation:
with my art/craft one can work in the Winter

My interpretation of this is that Bessler is saying his wheel will work fine in Winter because it can be kept sheltered from the elements unlike other power sources of the time.

If you slip on a frozen tundra you will hit the ground as quickly and with as much force as if you slip on a board thrown on the water enriched sand of an outgoing tide in the Bahamas. The most extreme temperature has no effect on the acceleration of the force of gravity. I think that's what Bessler meant when speaking about his 'Kunst' or as you translate it 'art/craft'. That is if I understand what you're saying.

Absolute zero is the point at which particles have a minimum energy, determined by quantum mechanical effects, which is called the zero-point energy

Temperature effects motion as much as the motion is constrained by friction created in expansion/contraction of material but temperature has no effect on the force of gravity as far as I know.

[bluesgtr44]

Georg, you are correct....I mentioned the same component twice. The wheel would be one component....then the opposition force (so to speak) would be the second component that compresses the third component inside and thus creates an input. Now, this input is going to need a direction/path that can be maintained. All I have to do is find that path....easy enough, huh? LMAO!


Steve

[wikiwheel]

I voted for "gravity only".

I believe Bessler did it with a pendulum swing on the axle. He said "nothing hung on the axle", like the turnspit wind up spring he was accused of using. A wind up mech like that would tend to "hang" there in one spot, as it tried to climb up one side or the other with the wheel turning around it. A pendulum would swing. He never denied "swinging" on the axle.

This is why he needed a large hollow torsion box like axle to support the tremendous force downward of a heavy pendulum.

Every wheel had the large axle when it would have been possible to accomplish the same thing (supporting the wheel) in other ways.

Go to your WM programs and swing a 6 foot pendulum beginning at the horizon. Guess what? The velocity rpm graph shows an oscillation of 0 to about 26 rpm. Similar results are produced from the radius dimensions and reported rpm's of his other wheels. The smaller they were, the faster they rotated.

This is why he got so mad when Gravesand started feeling around in the area.

If Bessler's access hole was positioned TDC when he let others feel in there, it would have been difficult to detect a pendulum shaft below without reaching in further, which Gravesand probably did.

Bessler's secret force was created by changing the resonant frequency of a swinging pendulum.

Mark my words.


Mik

[jim_mich]

This is why he got so mad when Gravesand started feeling around in the area.

I was unaware that Gravesande was allowed to reach inside the wheel?

I've heard it mentioned that Bessler allowed some friends to reach inside some of his wheels. I'd be interested to know when and which wheels? Was it one of the early wheels? Was it some close friends, or was it anyone that wanted to reach inside? Was the wheel a working wheel so that they reached in just before or after the wheel turned? Or was it maybe during construction and the wheel was missing the inside working components?

In other words, what was all the circumstances surrounding this?