MT135

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Stewart
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MT135

Post by Stewart »

Hi Michael

I was half way through typing this topic when I noticed your post about MT135!...

I've been studying MT135 and I think it's important - but I don't understand fully what it is showing. It's an odd image as it appears to only show the hub of a wheel and not a full wheel design. My thoughts on it are that the spoked wheel (A) shown is either a cross section of the hub (C), or another wheel that engages with the hub. If it is a cross section of the hub then I can't work out how to get the two images to relate in 3d (its the grooves/holes at each end of (C) that are the problem to me).

What's interesting about the top hub image (C) is that if you count the protruding pegs & holes shown across the length of the hub there are six - half the number of segments of the wheel and possible half the number of mechanisms. The pegs & holes are probably actuating the mechanisms somehow. I can't get my head around how they do the actuating at the moment as the hub and wheel are rotating together.

When I first saw MT135 it reminded me of the coded drum used in musical boxes and carillons. This is why I'm interested in seeing the carillon designs of Bessler's that John has. (see attachments)

If MT135 is a part of Bessler's working wheel then it gives weight to idea that the bi-directional wheel drawings of the wheels at Kassel & Merseburg show outside of the wheel parts used inside (i.e. the pegs on the hub that actuate the stamps).

What are your thoughts on MT135?

All the best
Stewart
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Carillon 2
Carillon 2
Carillon 1
Carillon 1
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Stewart
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re: MT135

Post by Stewart »

Just another observation...
Look at the ends of the hub in C - they appear to protrude slightly beyond the rest of the length of the hub (i.e. like there are two discs capping a hollow cylinder with a smaller diameter). This could mean that A is the cross section of the hollow hub, but I'm still not sure. John - is there any information about the hub used in Bessler's wheel. Does he say it is solid or hollow, or doesn't he say either way? Could the wheel possibly have a hollow hub as shown exactly in C and still support the huge weight of the wheel? Whatever MT135 is showing could still be accomplished by building a hollow cylinder around a solid hub, and from the outside you would only see the solid hub and thus nothing is given away. Why would the hub need to be hollow away, as pegs could be inserted and holes drilled into a solid hub?

Regards,
Stewart
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MT135 hub enlargement
MT135 hub enlargement
Last edited by Stewart on Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: MT135

Post by racer270 »

a clutch,one'way bearring or cogs????
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Stewart
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re: MT135

Post by Stewart »

Look at the attached image...
It shows part of a cast-bell carillon. It uses a bell crank to convert vertical to horizontal movement. We were discussing this device at the end of the topic "The A/B Toy", as all the toys on the MT toys page change the input movement from one direction to another. Here is a link to that topic:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=128

The attached diagram is interesting as the system shown is designed for shifting weights (i.e. the clappers). Here are a few similarities between it and Bessler's wheel plus other ideas...

clapper: the weights
spring: Bessler says springs were used
bell crank/tumbler = similar parts shown in MT (and could tumbler be acrobat, i.e. "Acrobats and shadow-boxers are as fleet and nimble as the wind.", from Apologia Poetica?)
lever (key) = could be lifted in special squence using something like MT135

All the best
Stewart
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Carillon bell-ringing mechanism
Carillon bell-ringing mechanism
Last edited by Stewart on Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: MT135

Post by Jonathan »

I had the impression that the little black rectangles on C were holes, through which the 'spokes' of the wheel A passed, so that C is a close-up of A's hub. Of course then what pushes the 'spokes' up at 6? (One should note that they can't be literal spokes if they can move around, they'd have no ability to hold the rim to the hub. Further, as the holes go all the way through the center and to the other side, the other of the pair of each visible hole on C isn't visible). As a basis for this interpretation, you see of the left of C, as the rectangles tend toward the other side at the top, a little rectangular dent, possibly indicative of a hole.
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re: MT135

Post by Stewart »

Hi Jonathan

Yes, they could all be holes. I was thinking they were all protruding except the two at either end, but I'm probably wrong. If this is the case then the spoked wheel (A) is definately a separate part, and the hub is probably solid. Presumable then the protruding spokes of this "cog" wheel fit into the holes in (C) and it is turned when the hub turns. I'm finding it difficult to see how this could work reliably though as there might only be one hole around the circumerance of the hub, and the few teeth on the cog are spaced quite far apart.
The fact that we have six holes in the hub could well mean there are six "cog" wheels. They could all be mounted on the same axle, or spaced out radially around the wheel.
Hmm, it's a weird one - I'll give it some more thought.

All the best
Stewart
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re: MT135

Post by Michael »

Stewart, I am so sorry, I was looking at the number you had on one of your images. I meant M.T. 142 I'll change what I wrote right away.

Sincerely,

Michael
P.S., did'n't really think too much of 135.
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re: MT135

Post by Stewart »

Hi Michael

That's ok - I thought it was strange that you should suddenly post about MT135 just as I was writing about it! The confusion has probably arisen because I'm trying not to refer to it as MT142 as there is nothing on the page that suggests that that is its number. I still think there could be some relevance to MT135 as it appears to show just a part of a wheel. The decoder fits its twelve sections nicely also.

All the best
Stewart
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re: MT135

Post by Michael »

I did look at the drawing before. Basically everything balances out (typically) like every other machine. I have some doubts as to the decoder because the lines it creates aren't exactly parallel. But still feel it holds as a possible reference to 142, the image you posted it against.

Did you look at 142? did you see the small three levered compression jack (like in the toy page), on the left side, where the arm attatches? I am wondering (thinking) that maybe this compressed a spring.

Best regards,

Michael
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Stewart
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re: MT135

Post by Stewart »

If MT135 is a complete theory for a wheel and not just a part of something else, could someone please explain the idea behind it as I just can't see it. Thanks.

Stewart
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re: MT135

Post by Michael »

As a complete theory for a wheel it doesn't make much sense. As a part for something else it possibly does. But there are quite a few other images that don't make any sense (as far as physics go) at all. I think I remember John or Oyyvus saying a lot of the drawings were failed attempts at P.M.

Regards,

Michal
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re: MT135

Post by Jonathan »

Yes, MT135 is a complete wheel, supposed to run clockwise. You can see on the periphery on the right side that the spokes stick out beyond the rim, where as on the left they don't. However, I don't know if it shows how those spokes are supposed to be moved to obtain that differential.
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re: MT135

Post by Mixleplix »

Hello... first off.. I am new here.

And after reading around, looking at the wheel discussion, sites etc. I came looking for particular input on the "Pegs"

I read somewhere, that Karl pointed out the Pegs are what keep the weights off the rim. The drawing of MT135 did not strike me as "the wheel" but the weights themselves.

I am trying to figure out how they would happen to react:

that the pegs either pertruded from weight (paired weight) which would also use something like MT 136, since that drawing also shows the inner pegs closer to one edge then the other.

Or the pegs found a "groove" of somekind to place them properly (string/springs perhaps)

I find this would account for the "simplicity" that Karl confesses and the Pegs do the work of unbalancing.


I believe Bessler stated the weights do the work as well.


Anyhoo... that is the path I have come to follow, the secret lies in the pegs on all of this.



***********************
this was the message i read

"The secret, if there was a secret, lay in the ingenious manner in which the weights on the ascending side of the wheel were prevented from following their normal path next to the rim. Count Karl said that these weights were blocked by small pegs which swung back out of the way as the weight passed the zenith."
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re: MT135

Post by jim_mich »

Mixleplix, welcome to the Bessler Forum.

Your quote, "Count Karl said that these weights were blocked by small pegs which swung back out of the way as the weight passed the zenith" comes from a book where the author embellished the story a little. There is no historical record of Count Karl ever making the statement about pegs.


By the way, this thread is over 4 years old. Maybe you should start a new thread and let this one rest in peace?


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Post by DrWhat »

Clearly C is the axle of the much larger wheel A.

The beams in wheel A are also staggered and slide through the axle.

You have 6 beams and 6 axle slots.
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