one of the machines with the math

[arthur]

ovyyus,

do you not think overunity/free energy is possible?

I'd like to know.
I dont remember you ever indicating that you even thought it was possible.

if you don't think free energy is possible,
what interests you with bessler wheel or this forum?

[ovyyus]

Arthur, of course free energy is possible. Free energy is everywhere around us: solar, wind, tidal, rivers, thermal, etc. All we have to do is figure out a way to harness it. Only a blind fool would think free energy is impossible or does not exist.

Bessler found a real free energy source to drive his wheel. That was his great breakthrough where all else before him (and evidently since) failed. But IMO, he first had to understand the difference between what is possible and what is impossible in order to make that breakthrough likely.

IMO hard work, persistence, knowledge, curiosity, learning from his and other people's mistakes - and throwing already well trodden pre-conceived notions of PM out the window - led to Bessler's eventual success. I think a similar approach holds the best chance of revealing Bessler's secret.

Does that answer your question?

[Michael]

I think it might be relevent on this thread to define the difference between free energy as far as humanity is concerned and perpetual motion. There's always a price. I'm pretty sure Bill doesn't mean Bessler found the ultimate free lunch - perpetual motion in it's truest meaning.

Bill, " wisest are they that know they know nothing". ;)

[arthur]

I wasn't talking about solar panels or tidal power, that stuff is barbaric.

I'm talking about real free energy: a self-powered wheel, using the permanent energy from magnets, or gravity etc.

I'm sure there is a simple solution.
nothing made 300 years ago was too complicated.
.....

I'd also like to know, bill,
have you ever attempted to make a wheel?

I'm sure that very few people have made a serious attempt,
so, the way I see it, notions of pm are in fact the not well trodden
in today's spoon-fed society.

I'll admit, I haven't yet attempted to build a gravity wheel.
I do, of course have several different designs which I have posted.

I'd like to see more people share their designs.

[ovyyus]

Yes Arthur, I've built more wheels and bits of wheels over the years than I care to remember. I've also built many dozens of magnetic and electrical alt-energy devices and experiments. A bit of trivia for you - back in the early 90's I was Robert Adams' (Adams Pulsed Motor/Generator) technical go-to guy and company associate. Another long story. All in the quest to uncover 'real free energy'.

I know you have belief's about the nature of magnets and gravity, but IMO they are clearly not founded on experience or any kind of applied understanding. I challenge you to have the courage to test your belief's by building and experimenting. I can't think of a better way to become knowledgable about the nature of things.

I also challenge you to learn as much as you can from the great body of knowledge currently freely and immediately at you disposal. We live in the wonder of the information age :)

Don't be mislead by those who would have you believe that learning is bad. Likewise, don't be mislead my those who claim that everything is known. Learn as much as you can, think for yourself, and believe as little as you can be comfortable with.

[AB Hammer]

ovyyus

Well put! you are going to start rivaling Fletcher in his way of talking.

I wish I could put it so well. I always envy those who can speak and put in word so well.

[jim_mich]

Michael,

Different people have different definitions for "Perpetual Motion". Scientists usually defines Perpetual Motion as an impossible machine that outputs more energy than it inputs and thus breaks the law of conservation of energy. The old classic definition of Perpetual Motion was any machine that produced continuous motion without any input of conventional fuel or energy. This classical definition usually assumed that the perpetual motion machine gained energy from gravity and/or the motion of weights. If a PM wheel was to magically extract extra energy from the external cosmic forces that are the source of gravity and inertial kinetic momentum then it would be a "Classical Perpetual Motion Machine" but it would not be a true perpetual motion machine in the scientific sense.

Any wheel that outputs extra energy must get that energy from somewhere. I agree with science that a true PM wheel in the scientific sense is impossible because it would output energy from nowhere.

We are searching for a "Classical Perpetual Motion Machine" that gains energy due to motion in some unknown "magical" way from some as yet undefined source. I think this type of Classical PM might be possible; else I would not be here.

PS. Magic is only magic until the method is known, then it becomes science.

[ovyyus]

...This classical definition usually assumed that the perpetual motion machine gained energy from gravity and/or the motion of weights...We are searching for a "Classical Perpetual Motion Machine"...

Jim, when it comes to the belief that gravity or inertia can be an energy source, please don't include me in your "we" ;)

[jim_mich]

Bill, I think you read more into my words than what I actually said. I thought that I painted a picture with broad enough strokes to even include you when I said that the wheel that we search for would gain energy from some undefined source. The as yet undefined source could be ambient temperature or whatever. Belief that gravity or inertia can be an energy sources is, at this time, only an assumption made by some individuals in their search for PM. It is not part of the definition of classical perpetual motion.

Only if you are NOT searching for how to make a wheel turn perpetually like Bessler's seemed to do would I not include you in my "we".

[ovyyus]

In that case I guess I'm back on your "we" list, Jim :D

[Michael]

If a PM wheel was to magically extract extra energy from the external cosmic forces that are the source of gravity and inertial kinetic momentum then it would be a "Classical Perpetual Motion Machine" but it would not be a true perpetual motion machine in the scientific sense.

Sure Jim, if you could find a way to harness the well of infinity then the energy taken would still fall towards entropy and it wouldn't be true perpetual motion. But either way, true perpetual motion or harnessing the well seem dubious at best, but I would lean towards a stronger possibility of well harnessing if there was any chance at all.

[arthur]

2 meters fall at the short end and 10 meters at the extended end. 1.2 kgs on the extension and 10kgs on the short end, that is 12 kilos of lift required for 20 kilos of free falling weight leaving you with 8 kilos of energy.

quinn,
what are you talking about?

if the long side of a fulcrum beam extends 5 times
the distance of the short side,

1.2 kg on the long end cannot lift 10 kg on the short end.

2 kg on the long end balances 10 kg on the short end.

[greendoor]

Yeah - I certainly don't follow the "maths". I sincerely hope the Mighty Quinn has got a working device, regardless of his communication skills.

A lever cannot be a source of power. A lever is the linear version of a rotary gearset. Gears can't produce power either. They can help to match a power source with a load, and optimise efficiency of power transfer - but they can't create power.

Pendulums and flywheels can store power - but they can't create it. They can fool us by time-shifting power transfer - but we can't cheat the system. Ultimately - power output = power input with loses.

A falling weight can certainly create power - but how do you get it back up again without expending at least the same amount of power? It seems to me that now matter you slice or dice it - Force applied over time = Force applied over time (with losses).

I expect the Quin will accuse me of being a Newton loving Oil man. And that's actually fairly accurate - althought I no longer work for the oil company, and I would LOVE to bring them down with a working free energy device. I'm also not naive to think they wouldn't kill whoever they needed to kill to prevent this happening. Look how many people Bush has arranged to be killed just to maintain the price of oil ...

Quinn my friend - be very carefull. I really wish you well - I want you to succeed. But please realise that thinking people can't understand what you are trying to say, even if they are pre-disposed to want you to succeed.

[the eskimo quinn]

[arthur]

eskimo quinn,

please describe this drawing