A wheel inside a wheel?

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Stewart
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A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by Stewart »

Moving this discussion from path_finders topic as I don't want it to interfere with his main discussion.

I've seen people make reference to 'a wheel inside a wheel' or 'wheels within wheels' as something Bessler said. What is the source of this as I'm not aware that Bessler actually said his wheel consisted of a wheel or wheels within a wheel? I'm not saying there weren't any wheels in his wheel, but just want to make sure we're not putting words in Bessler's mouth.
Jim_Mich wrote:Maybe from the Bible?
Bible in Basic English: Ezekiel 1:16
The form of the wheels and their work was like a beryl; the four of them had the same form and design, and they were like a wheel inside a wheel.
Yes, I was aware of the Bible quote, but did Bessler say anything about a wheel inside a wheel?

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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by path_finder »

Dear Stewart,
I understand your rigourist approach in view to be sure of the clues coming really from Bessler an NOT from apocryph documents.
Regarding the Bible text of Exechiel, the translation seem to be difficult:
http://bible.cc/ezekiel/1-16.htm
If for a single text so much different translation are available, what can we say on the original Bessler documents in old german?
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by Chad »

Stewart bessler did mention this in his metaphor from AP heres a quote.
A wheel appears on the scene - is it really a wheel,
for it does not have the normal type of rim. It revolves, but
without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind,
or springs.
What goes around, comes around!.
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Post by greendoor »

Note that until the line "a wheel appears", there is no specific mention of any other wheel. This is significant to me, because personally I don't believe there was a wheel within a wheel. My personal view is biased because I have a free-energy prime-mover principle in mind that does not require a wheel, but could equally use a wheel design. Could Bessler be any more clear about this ... "It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside ..."

In my view, the outside wheel was simply a gravity wheel, no more complicated than a water wheel, because it had a constant supply of a falling weight ...

I could be completely wrong of course. I think Bessler was devious but not outright dishonest. Perhaps his use of the plural in "without weights" mean that there was a singular weight overbalancing the wheel at any one time? Just speculating ...
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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by Stewart »

path_finder wrote:If for a single text so much different translation are available, what can we say on the original Bessler documents in old german?
I can see why you and others might think it isn't possible to get a good translation from Bessler's writings, but I think your assumptions are a result of a lack of knowledge and understanding of language in Bessler's time. It's very easy just to dismiss Bessler's writing with this excuse, and I often wonder whether people say this as a way of convincing themselves that it's not worth the effort of attempting to understand them, and so feel vindicated in their own minds that they can ignore the Bessler texts and carry out their non-Bessler influenced research with a clear conscience. There's nothing wrong with choosing to ignore Bessler's wheel and his writings, but please don't suggest that nothing useful or reliable can be gained from his writings and belittle the work of others in this area when you know nothing about it. In fact on the whole it's not as difficult as you might think but does require hard work and research in some areas.

Comparing Bessler's writing to The Bible is not a fair comparison - the Old Testatment dates back more than 2000 years and to stand any chance of getting a good translation you'd have to study the original documents in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek - something I've never tried and never intend to, but imagine it would be difficult. Bessler's writings date back less than 300 years - a very short space of time - and are written mainly in German which is a language still widely used today and that has changed very little in that time. Also there are many similarities between the German and English languages. One issue when translating old German documents is that sometimes you have to deal with different dialects and this can involve some more extensive research. Also as the subject matter is science and mechanics of the period, research into these areas is important as certain terms are not likely to appear in everyday language. The good news is there were thousands of science and mechanics related books and documents printed in German and Latin in Bessler's era which we can use for cross referencing.

The most difficult Bessler document to translate is his Poetic Apologia because of its poetic, rhyming nature. Most of the other documents cause very few problems. I've only been studying the Bessler texts and old German for a few years, and even so I feel confident that, given time, we can translate his writings accurately. Interpreting some of the things he writes is another matter altogether though. Anyway, I know that there's enough of importance in the documents (not just wheel information but also from a historical perspective) to make it worth my while continuing my research efforts and posting my findings. However, I would suggest to people that their PM research not be restricted to just the Bessler wheel and Bessler writings, but I'm pretty sure most people aren't anyway and like me view it as only one avenue of research.

As an example of how it can sometimes take time and research to figure out certain dialect terms, but that it's possible to get there in the end, take the following couplet from AP...

Die Kinder spielen auf den Säulgen
Mit lauter schweren Schniebe-Käulgen;

The word 'Schniebe-Käulgen' had bothered me for many years and was the only word I'd seen that I couldn't come up with anything at all for that made sense. In John Collins' AP book it is translated as:
"Children play with heavy clubs among the broken columns."

I could see how the translator had arrived at the word 'clubs' from the word 'Käulgen', but he was completely ignoring the prefix 'Schniebe' and so I've never been happy that it meant simply 'clubs'. However, I finally found the answer recently and can see now that this is a dialect spelling of 'Schnipp-Käulgen' or 'Schnippkäulchen' which means 'marbles' (the toy/game) - and it makes sense that children would be playing with a well known toy.

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Post by Stewart »

Chad wrote:Stewart bessler did mention this in his metaphor from AP heres a quote.
In the quote you give Bessler does talk of a wheel but says there are NO wheels inside or outside so it can't be the source for "a wheel inside a wheel". Also, this quote comes from chapter 46 of AP which is full of metaphors and there's no guarantee that these metaphors have anything to do with his PM wheel. For example, one of my theories is that the wheel he talks of here is the image at the back of AP in its role as a possible decoder wheel. Because we can't be sure at the moment what the purpose of the text in chapter 46 is, and whether it has anything to do with a description of his PM wheel, my advice would be not to worry too much about fitting it to any designs for wheels you might have and instead concentrate more on the parts where we know Bessler is talking specifically about his wheel.
greendoor wrote:Could Bessler be any more clear about this ... "It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside ..."
As I've just mentioned, I don't think it's safe to assume that Bessler is talking about his PM wheel here. Although it sounds like he is talking about his PM wheel, it could be a crafty trick or play on words and so I'd be very wary of the metaphors section for now.
greendoor wrote:Perhaps his use of the plural in "without weights" mean that there was a singular weight overbalancing the wheel at any one time?
Actually it's singular in the original text, but there's more to it anyway. In the translation you're quoting the translator has ignored a word presumably because he didn't understand its meaning and has made the text more confusing in doing so. The words used are 'Zimbel-Gewicht' meaning cymbal-weight. This is a term used to describe a weight descending on a rope used to power various automata in Bessler's time such as self-playing glockenspiels, turnspits etc. Bessler also says elsewhere that his wheel is not powered by 'Zimbel-Gewicht', but as you can see this does not rule out the use of weights, just weights used in that manner. Bessler states that weights were used in his wheel and that they were essential and constitutive parts of it.

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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by Grimer »

Ezechiel 1:16. And the appearance of the wheels, and the work of them was like
the appearance of the sea and the four had all one likeness: and their
appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the midst of a
wheel.


Using the Abeling drawings as a crib I think Bessler had cogged wheels or cogged axles to wheels. Don't forget he was a skilled clockmaker so he would be very familiar with cogs and gear ratios and things like that.

The work of them was "like the appearance of the sea".

Well what is the appearance of the sea?

Let's ask the Ancient Mariner.

Day after day, day after day,
We stuck, nor breath nor motion ;
As idle as a painted ship
Upon a painted ocean
.

So it can be flat as a pancake - but earlier we read,

The fair breeze blew, the white foam flew,
The furrow followed free ;
We were the first that ever burst
Into that silent sea.


So the sea consists of waves and the appearance of the sea could refer to a series of waves or teeth - teeth of a cog.

And if we have teeth they have to bite into something, a rack perhaps as in the Abeling Gravity Motor.

And since in clock mechanisms there is (as any small boy who has taken old alarm clocks apart will know) a big cog with a little cog firmly attached on the same axle. This will give a mechanical advantage to the wheel and give it a much higher rotational speed as it climbs up the rack.

After all, if rotation is advantageous in any way then the more of it the better. 8-)
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by Grimer »

If you think long and hard about Figure 6 of the Abeling patent you will see why and how the Abeling machine works. Clearly, from the Ezechiel prophecy it is clear that Bessler got there 300 years earlier.
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Post by AB Hammer »

Grimer

I have not see any proof that Abeling's wheel works. From the design, I see allot of friction to overcome.
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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by Grimer »

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #759 on: Today at 12:29:01 PM » Quote Modify

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johann E. E. Bessler:

"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain."

That says it all doesn't it. Together with the Ezechiel quote

Ezechiel 1:16. And the appearance of the wheels, and the work of them was like
the appearance of the sea and the four had all one likeness: and their
appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the midst of a wheel.

It shows that Bessler beat Sjack to it by 300 years.

Think about it. What happens to the downwards force on the rack as the cogged weight climbs.

Where does this reaction finish up.

That's right, the ground. And that ain't going anywhere soon.

So the ground "sees" the wheel as having gotten (good Yankee word that ) heavier.

But if the wheel's gotten heavier, something else must have gotten lighter, eh!

What?

The weights climbing up the rack.

Now go back and read the Bessler quote.

===============================================

It'll be interesting to see if the cognitive dissonance here is as bad as it was on OU.com.

You'd think that when someone claims he has the answer to a 300 year old puzzle, somebody, somewhere, would at least have the decency to call him an idiot. 8-)
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Post by Stewart »

Please can anyone tell me where Bessler quotes Ezechiel 1:16 or says anything about a wheel within a wheel. Thanks. Stewart
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Post by jim_mich »

I've never seen any quotes by Bessler concerning a "wheel in a wheel".
This is a Bible quote, not a Bessler Quote.


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Post by Stewart »

Thanks Jim - that's what I suspected. Stewart.
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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by rlortie »

Grimer Wrote:
You'd think that when someone claims he has the answer to a 300 year old puzzle, somebody, somewhere, would at least have the decency to call him an idiot. 8-)
That my friend is the difference found between Besslerwheel.com and overunity. We do not need to call each other idiots as we already know how society as a whole looks upon us.

Idiots can be found wasting 78 pages of a topic thread discussing wm2d simulations on something they think may be a runner. They would be far ahead to listen to their elders or build the damn thing.

My first introduction to a similar ramp with or without "rack and pinion" for lifting as well as introducing rotation in weights was in 1984. If anyone thinks there is something new here, they need to go back to the books!

The only people showing any smarts is I-Ron Charlie and Larry C. other than that you 78 pages of wasted space!

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re: A wheel inside a wheel?

Post by james kelly »

I, myself , believe that no matter where any of you look; you will find no answer.
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