MT13 digest...

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MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...is easily,the well known Bessler's design with a cut down:two opposite spokes only...

All the Best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...is a possibility to shorten,reduce,simplify the design of MT 13 from www.orffyre.com/mt1-20.html into www.geocities.com/iacob_alex/Some_Drafts/text009.jpg

A wheel with 12 spokes,becomes a wheel with 2 spokes,only(one constant,one variable).

All the Best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...is nothing more than a simplified Bessler design.

We have 2 spokes,instead of 12 spokes.

One spoke has a constant middle length.

The second spoke has a variable length (greater or smaller than the middle length).

The switch (longer/shorter than middle) of the second spoke is due to a "bump" effect of the rolling great wheel,on the rolling small wheel.

The two masses on the spokes ,are equal.

The heavy hub plays as a flywheel :a rotational charge-discharge storage.

The strange detail : we have a continuous pendular fall,next to~360 degrees(contrasting to a common 180 degrees fall in gravity) charging gravity power, but only a short "bump" of the small pendulum (discharging,I hope...only a fraction from the stored power).

All the Best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...is intended to be a step only,in a long time evolution of the same
idea:long arm on the same side of the fulcrum.

Let's take a short look on net,on the history of this "illusory"design:
-Taccola (1382-1458)
-Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519)
-Bessler 1712
-others...

On paper,this concept,has two critical points:0*(360*) and 180*,where we need a self-commuting procees (short arm into long arm,on the same side of the fulcrum).

In reality,this concept remains in the "middle" :
-the down critical point(180*),has no problems:it's self,works so easy ,just in a point.
-the top critical point (0*/360*) has a lot of problems:needs a long period of time and space...and the most important,it's not a self process.

So,as a whole,in reality this design doesn't work.

Bessler(see MT13),made a step forward:he reduced the top commuting space from 180* to 30*.

The reason of the topic "MT13 digest..." was to keep going this concept into reality.

All the Best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...face to the original MT 13 ( www.orffyre.com/mt1-20.html ) shows as the most important distinctive feature ,the possibility to collect more power,because only gravity does the work...

The power drawn from gravity acts on the falling mass,relating to the time and space factors.

With the original MT 13,we have a fall no more than 30* (between two successive spokes).

With the MT 13 "digest",we have a ..surprising continuous 12 times greater fall (the design,pos. 3 ,beginning with the "blue" mass in the top site,as a long arm).

All the Best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...can be tested in the most simple manner.

All that you need ,is a bar: a narrow piece of solid material.

Imagine this bar ,to play as a first degree lever,with two unequal arms.

The small arm ,will play the medium arm.

The great arm (" modified") must have a small hinged part ,so to can play greater or smaller than the medium arm(due to this hinged part...).

This changing end of a linear bar,can be the only problem ...

All the Best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

....as two oposite spokes only,and a fulcrum,is the final stage of any PM design:it's the limit shape and the lonely required values(arm,weight),so to make the torque calculus.

If you have a working frame,the "arabesque decoration" ( wheel -folklore) can be antagonistic quite to the working principle.

The skeleton of Mechanics is Archimedes's lever rules.

Usually ,"less is more" ,with a good starting point ...if not ,than "more is less" .

All the best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...as I see the things,can be the real "under wraps" Bessler's solution.

What we can see outside is one,what really works inside is "covered".

Bessler published over 140 designs of machines,that he tested that did not work.

After many failures,he claimed that he discovered a design (only one!? between so many...) that did work.

In my opinion,the most promising design is MT13:it's in the line of the classical solution (Villard,Taccola,da Vinci and others).

He used the long arm-short arm simpliest natural switch (the joint);

-in the bottom position,a hinged mass on the long arm,becomes so easy the short arm (a self switch)

-in the top position,the same hinged mass(as a pendulum) needs some "help",to switch from short arm into long arm.

This "help" can be the stored rotational inertia.

Bessler's improvement was to minimize this switch time from 180* to 30*(compare with Villard,Taccola,da Vinci)

But on the line of Bessler's "secret",MT13 "digest" can be a step,only...

All the best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by LustInBlack »

... And there's always that thing missing in every design to make it turn..

I think this is what is said in those MT .. It's only missing the same part.. That little thing that pushes the wheel so it resets itself..

It's always a little something.. It's really annoying and insulting when you think of it.. Imagine trying to shot a ball at the goal and the goaler is god..
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by getterdone »

Ive beeen thinking about MT 13 for the last few days. I was wandering if you combine MT 13 and MT 135 what would happen. the way I look at MT 135 is that the entire page is a picture of an axle, but its upside-down The way I imagine it could work is if the spindles going through the center of the axle where heavy enough when they become verticle they would drop and fold up the top pivoting wheight and fold in the bottom one this would stay that way until it goes a half turn and it would drop again I would try to keep the spindles as short as possible and connect it to the weights on the perimiter with small steel rods. I dont know if this would work or not, just a though.

Leo
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

'...is in the line,you know,that "simplicity is the key".

Prince Karl (who had seen the inside of a working Bessler's wheel),said that this one,was very simple,and that he could not understand,why it had not been invented previously.

His description, is that of a simple arrangement of levers and weights,that anyone will comprehend so easy.

Villard's design is a rim and 7 hammers (some of them hanging as free pendulums,the others laying on the rim/"wheel").

Bessler's MT13 is a rim and 12 pendulums( (some of them hanging as free masses/on equal short arms,the others laying on the rim/on equal long arms).

Bessler's MT13 is interesting,because:

-the long arm-short arm switch is "self",in the bottom position

-the short arm-long arm switch is intended for a shorter time(space):30*...but he can't avoid to assist/help this "small jump up "motion...as a whole ,it's not a "self" commute.

As a result,he must "consume" some power from the only source:the gravity fall.
His fall of masses is no more than 30*...

Here is the point...we can organize a maximum fall (180*),with two equal masses/two unequal arms.

This is the equivalent of a full up-down fall of a single pendular equivalent.

If Bessler,maybe, used Villard's "unpaired" idea(but 7 becomes 1),here appears a real wonder:around a 360*/two-steps continuous fall,so a surprising possible storage of power .

If we have a greater storage of power,the "small jump up" problem becomes your tiny puzzle.

Regarding the up here comment...,"that little thing that pushes..." ,it can be a longer gravity fall.

Regarding MT135 suggestion :MT 13 is more "definite" face to MT135.

Their combination(MT13+MT135),can be a step more or less questionable:usually ...less is more.

All the best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by getterdone »

You know Alex, when you listed those that had tried the MT 13 you forgot to mention the best one of all, Aldo Costa. I ,think the jury is still out on that one, but myself I think it works. However I have to agree with LIB, without the prime mover everything stands still, when the prime mover is discvered I think it will be possible to make lots of the MT designs work, starting with MT 1, but that being said, have fun with it.

Leo
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

Hi !
I admire and respect,like many others,the great achievement of Aldo Costa .

You can read on net,the classification of his performance:arabian wheel,in the line of mercury wheel (Bhaskara).

In "MT13 digest..." topic,we are talking about "simple hinged gravity wheels" and a possible traslation from the wheel concept to a lever concept.

Aldo Costa's uses a shifting-weight overbalanced arrangement,and his 18 meters wheel stalls after a while,because the unbalance is weak...he seeks to make it greater(40-50 meters),so to hope a self -running.

As you can easy notice,he needs more free fall...this is the point where he can get more gravity power,but in the same time,this manner (bigger and bigger...) must pay a greater and greater "price" for friction.

It's not difficult to understand that ,the opposite solution (Aldo Costa's wheel,with two spokes only and much smaller size),so a tiny weight (and friction) but a greater space (180* free fall) can be more optimistic.

The dilemma crossroad is to understand ,the overpass from statics to dynamics,from a wheel design to lever design,from an "arabesque" concept to an Archimedes concept.

Maybe,the quote of this day:..."...convincing another person to agree with you is impossible,when done right"(Scott Ellis-1971) is the real missing sentence between the persons of this forum.

Many topics begin as genuine,but end as savage and unavailing,useless controversies ...thinking about Bessler's philosophical comment of "greed".

For some people "time is money !",but for all of us "time is life,firstly!"

All the best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...can be expressed easy,if we take a look at a short movie at : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl8dM2wQB4k

This is a simulation of the well known Bessler's MT13.

A real model of MT13,we know,it's not self running.

The problem is,if we can use its design,in some way so to get in reality a workable prototype.

MT13 digest,is a proposal to simplify the primary Bessler's design:

-only two oposite hinged spokes

-180* switch (instead of 90*),in the top position,of the hinged small arm into a long arm

All the best! / Alex
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re: MT13 digest...

Post by iacob alex »

...or Bessler's MT13 can be a starting point to achieve a PM,if we imagine two "steps":
-to simplify(two opposite arms,only)
-to modify (a hinged arm,only)
Some details at /Gravity "wheel" concept/.

All the best! / Alex
Simplicity is the first step to knowledge.
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