the clues that fit and the unknown.

[Irish Oracle]

I know how it works, its not difficult, but its a couple of steps outside the normal attempts. That said I will list the Quotes and eye accounts to point in the right direction. I will be glad for others to add any i have missed, thus updating the definite knowns and the lies.

===============================================

Here i will list the clues that are 100% correct and describe the wheels inner working.

================

1 Machine was set in motion by weights. YES

2 Weights gained force from their own swinging (or movement).
NO they do not swing
Weights gained force from their own movement. YES

3 Weights applied force at right angles to the axis YES

4 The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter. YES (obviously)

5 all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712 YES

6 a work of this kind of craftsmanship has, at its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time. YES

7 by making the true claim - that no weights hang from the axle of my wheel. TRUE YES

8 If one weight is giving an upward impetus, another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one. YES

9 It must, simply put, just revolve, without being wound-up, through the principle of 'excess weight'. YES

10 it runs according to 'preponderance', and turns everything else along with it; as long as its materials shall endure, it will revolve of its own accord. YES

11 On one side it is heavy and full; on the other empty and light, just as it should be YES

12 reached the stage now where even a poor workman could put the thing together without a lot of head-scratching; and get it completed almost before you could notice" YES

13 The clattering noise you refer to is, I assure you, a phenomenon caused directly by the real motive power of the machine, and nothing else YES

14 In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle. YES

15 When revealed, you will hear the wretches say: - "Just look at the thing properly, and you'll see that there isn't much artistry to it YES

16 For this concept, my 'principle of excess weight'" ... "these weights are themselves the PM device, the 'essential constituent parts' which must of necessity continue to exercise their motive force (derived from the PM principle) indefinitely - so long as they keep away from the centre of gravity. YES

17 they are enclosed in a structure or framework, and co-ordinated in such a way that not only are they prevented from attaining their desired equilibrium or 'point of rest', but they must for ever seek it, thereby developing an impressive velocity which is proportional to their mass and to the dimensions of their housing. YES

18 Weights were cylindrical.
- Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account

Not that important

===============================================

Things that dont fit so nicely

======================

1 Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another. NOT sure at all about the meaning of this

2 Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested
I do not have any springs at all but it may be that bessler used them.

3 Weights may have been pierced in the middle and attached by connecting springs (observer speculation).
- Acta Eridutorum, An Account of the Perpetuum Mobile of J. E. E. Orffyreus, 1715

THIS is possible but does not effect the reason it works.

4 Weights were heard hitting the side of the wheel going down
Again this means nothing.

5 Machine (Gera wheel) made scratching noises, as if parts or poles moved over one another.
- eyewitness accounts

Again it must have made noise huh??

6 Weights may have been attached to movable or elastic arms on the periphery of the wheel (observer speculation).
- Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account


NO NO NO not possible.

7 About 8 weights fell during each revolution of the wheel, which took about 3 seconds. (Kassel wheel diameter ~ 12 feet)
- Joseph Fischer, eyewitness account

Nonsense

[Chad]

There are a couple of clues that really bother me here that i may not
be understanding or other people have taken them out of context?,
by this i mean they are not clues at all and could be sarcasm used
by Bessler.


This clue bothers me below.

==========================================
Clue

So then, a work of this kind of
craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces
of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up
an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle.
Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing
places all the time. (This principle is in fact the one that Wagner
said he owed to me - but I was quite wrongly implicated, as I'd
never informed anyone about the matter.).
==========================================

It seems as though this is sarcasm from Bessler because he gives
the description but then says pretty much that Wagner says Bessler
told him this principle but then Bessler denies any knowledge of it.

The next clue that bothers me also.

==========================================
Clue

Wagner - then start tearing your hair
out, because you'll soon find, you splendid mechanic, that this is
a nut you can't crack! If one weight is giving an upward impetus,
another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one.
And as for the interior cog mechanism - that will hinder movement
rather than promote it.

==========================================

Bessler here seems to be pointing out faults with Wagners ideas
and begins to tear them down one by one, so the above clue which
is highlighted may not be a description of the workings of Besslers
wheel but a problem that Wagner will no doubt run into because
he doesn't know the correct principle.

These clues sound very revealing on their own but they don't sound to good when you add the accompanying text.

Its just my take on things?.

The quotes are from John Collins AP book, thanks JC.

Chad.

[Irish Oracle]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Very good. Very very good.

Just goes to show I do not have any books, and have not read all the info.

"It seems as though this is sarcasm from Bessler because he gives
the description but then says pretty much that Wagner says Bessler
told him this principle but then Bessler denies any knowledge of it".

I think that Wagner was close to the solution so Bessler distanced himself ?

If wagner has and drawings of his attempts than look them up.

"If one weight is giving an upward impetus,
another one, at the same time, is giving an equal downward one.
And as for the interior cog mechanism - that will hinder movement
rather than promote it".


Wagner has a cog system but obviously its not PM he has an equal ammount of weight on each side, so it does not work yet, but............ for bessler to say these things he is throwing ye off track.


"On one side it is heavy and full; on the other empty and light, just as it should be"
But this is cryptic from bessler, all the weights are in and around the exact weight.

[ruggerodk]

Ohh...you KNOW how it works?

Interesting.
Can you give us some hints that's not a repetition of what's already said by Bessler, please?

ruggero ;-)

[Irish Oracle]

OK its nice to be asked. Here is the thing. I do not have my wheel made yet so, i would like to finish it and video it so all can watch online. My intention is for all to see.

I will answer all and any questions but please ask.

I have looked at every attempt, drawn or animation and none have gotten close to it. Thats a big hint.

So I will give u 1 and lets go from there. What I want is for all here to try and figure it out before I can show it. Its not what u think it is. Its 3 layers beyond any example I have seen. Every example I looked at is at stage1, I am at stage 4.

Bessler looked beyond every drawing he showed in his book, he said .....a combination of some of his drawings taken together may explain the solution, I cant see it but maybe he had a different approach, all I know is that the weights can never find a resting position.

BIG HINT........

Bessler made a forth dimention lever, the effect of gravity means the weights can never rest.

[ruggerodk]

IR:

Wagner has a cog system but obviously its not PM he has an equal ammount of weight on each side, so it does not work yet, but............ for bessler to say these things he is throwing ye off track.

So you say that Bessler did not have equal ammount of weight on each side?

What then, DID he have..in your opinion?

Is Bessler talking pieces of weights OR equal torque (influence) by weights?

What kind of weight path are you working with?

Its 3 layers beyond any example I have seen.

If you mean 'lever': What kind of lever system do you imagine was involved?

ruggero ;-)

[Irish Oracle]

So you say that Bessler did not have equal ammount of weight on each side?


NO Bessler has an equal ammount of weight on each side the weights act in pairs. This is why I think he says if u can lift a 4lb weight with 1lb u are a craftsman. But the only way to do this is to have a lever.

"How many weight path are you working with"

Great Question! Bessler said the weights worked in pairs, eye witness said he had approx 12.

Everything bassler said has an extra dimention.

[justsomeone]

Irish, Have you figured out any of the clues from the toy page?

[ruggerodk]

IR:

By 'weight path' I meant the path the weight (or rather centerpoint of each weight) are travelling, compared to the axle of the wheel.

And about the 'lever system':
How would you describe a "forth dimension lever' and in what way will it be differrent from lets say a seesaw kind of lever?

ruggero ;-)

[Irish Oracle]

Irish, Have you figured out any of the clues from the toy page?


Toy page ??? ok I will look into that 1 and got back to u.

[ruggerodk]

Irish, Have you figured out any of the clues from the toy page?

What don't you know about the toy page?

ruggero ;-)

[Irish Oracle]

By 'weight path' I meant the path the weight (or rather centerpoint of each weight) are travelling, compared to the axle of the wheel.




"Weights applied force at right angles to the axis" Besler himself why ask me?


""""And about the 'lever system':
How would you describe a "forth dimension lever' and in what way will it be differrent from lets say a seesaw kind of lever?"""""

Have u ever seen the science drawing of a forth dimention cube ? check it out, if you were in the forth dimention the drawing would look like a cube does to us in the third dimention.



"""in what way will it be differrent from lets say a seesaw kind of lever?""

a seesaw kind of lever is always drawn in 2 dimentions but if u go to the park u can sit on it AKA three D. now put it in a Besslers wheel so its action works through 360 digrees plane.

[Irish Oracle]

What don't you know about the toy page


NO should I ? Sounds good.

[jim_mich]

I'm having a difficult time following this thread.

Irish keeps quoting other members in a way that makes it confusing as to who is saying what.

Irish, could you please do one of three things?

1. Use the quote feature...

   Code: Select all

    [quote="name"] text .... text [/quote]

2. State who you are quoting and use quote marks.
3. Omit any quotes and just state who you are talking to.

By the way, welcome to the forum!

[Irish Oracle]

Yea sorry Jim the quote thing seems funy to me, Iam doing something wrong.

Thanks for the welcome.
Nice forum.

Anyway I have what I think is a working Bessler wheel, but I will admit I am in the process of making it, almost there.

I have the solution.
What I want is full open disclosure.

The object of this discussion is to allow anyone to ask about my idea, to hopefully discover it themselves before I reveal it.