Out of chaos arises order...

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This idea is totally insane

Poll ended at Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:25 am

This guy is as mad as a hatter
1
33%
This guy is as mad as a hatter but there might be something in this mad idea
2
67%
 
Total votes: 3

nicbordeaux
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Out of chaos arises order...

Post by nicbordeaux »

We're all attempting to build orderly machines. And most of us who have built "mad" testbenches or machines which are not "tuned" or are deliberately "infinitely rerrangeable" for the purpose of observation will have noticed that in pretty short order, a quite regular, cyclical or constant pattern emerges, most often in the device coming to a sooner than desired standstill :)

However, I think I can see a "chaos" machine which is designed so that no predictable order will arise, or so that identifiable reccurrent order will occur rather a long way down the road, and immediately disapear. This requires associating various systems of mass distribution into one device, and the suitable use of at least one spring. To compensate for and take advantage of a very "overweight end". In clear, all the components in the system are unblanced, and each movement produces a cascade of other events which will be of different magnitude and order depending on the relative positions of each component at a given moment.

Anybody else had thoughts about this, and tried it in a "rational" way ?

A pendulum would probably be required, not heavy, but a pendulum, beacause the things do have a tendancy to return things to point of departure meaning return to horizontal and over, which does explain their popularity in association with oscilators, kind of "poorman's perpetual motion almost there" gift of nature.

Anybody interested in a challenge to build the first one to run one (1) hour and do some small amount of work, like flashing a bulb intermittantly, or throwing a bouncy ball on the end of a bungee so that the ball breaks something ?
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Post by greendoor »

I once presented a very basic idea for a 'wobbler' engine. Basically, erect a tall vertical pole - as high as you possible can. It's not going to stay in one position, for various reasons. Mainly wind shifts, but it will pick up oscillations from various sources - acoustic, sub-acoustic, earthquakes, whatever. Close to the top, mount some magnets and a coil to dampen the oscillations and extract the free energy.

It might be surprising how much energy could be extracted ...
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Post by greendoor »

If you think of pendulum as having a sinewave waveform, then if you sum them together at the peak of their cycle, the peak amplitude can get very high. This is a problem that recording engineers grapple with daily, especially with digital software that clip badly if the peaks exceed the available bit depth ...

I have sometimes wondered if we can get multiple pendulums deliberately tuned to different frequencies to interact with each other. Each pendulum basically is a near-Unity energy store. For very little energy cost, we should be able to get all the different pendulum swinging. At some point, which will appear to be chaotic, all pendulum bobs will align together and create an amplitude peak, at which point we grab the mass at it's highest elevation.

This would be too complex to figure out mathematically (for me anyway). But my instinct says that ultimately, there can be no energy gain, because on average we are just re-arranging the energy we put into the system. As soon as we start taking energy out, I would guess we have to replace it.

At least with my Wobbler, we can see where the external energy is coming from ...
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Ed
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Re: Out of chaos arises order...

Post by Ed »

nicbordeaux wrote:Anybody interested in a challenge to build the first one to run one (1) hour and do some small amount of work, like flashing a bulb intermittantly, or throwing a bouncy ball on the end of a bungee so that the ball breaks something ?
Are you going to try to make Finsrud eat a hat now? What ever happened to Milkovic? Did you leave him kicking back on a beach tapping a bike wheel with his foot?
nicbordeaux
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Post by nicbordeaux »

greendoor wrote:If you think of pendulum as having a sinewave waveform, then if you sum them together at the peak of their cycle, the peak amplitude can get very high. This is a problem that recording engineers grapple with daily, especially with digital software that clip badly if the peaks exceed the available bit depth ...

I have sometimes wondered if we can get multiple pendulums deliberately tuned to different frequencies to interact with each other. Each pendulum basically is a near-Unity energy store. For very little energy cost, we should be able to get all the different pendulum swinging. At some point, which will appear to be chaotic, all pendulum bobs will align together and create an amplitude peak, at which point we grab the mass at it's highest elevation.

This would be too complex to figure out mathematically (for me anyway). But my instinct says that ultimately, there can be no energy gain, because on average we are just re-arranging the energy we put into the system. As soon as we start taking energy out, I would guess we have to replace it.

At least with my Wobbler, we can see where the external energy is coming from ...
Greendoor, I think you might want to use a different terminology, because claiming "At least with my Wobbler, we can see where the external energy is coming from ..." sounds as if you are making a pretentious claim :) Or need medical advice, because it shouldn't wobble, really.

The problem with all pendular devices is are they just shifting mass about, or producing net periodic + offset by net -. My modest opinion is that that the end result is net zero gain, rapid total loss, but that during the runtime there are big variations, points at which e can be harnassed.

As to several pendulums, theory predicts that two pendulums (identical) swinging close to each other will synchronize, not sure whether is some small G efect of the bobs or else.

Adding a pendulum to a "chaos" machine is just a way of ensuring long run time. Quite a few other systems will be included. I have tried total pendular, eg everything however big or small , can swing in oe way or another. Some configurations, which can never be constructed again when anything is moved on the machine, will run with pretty nice amplitude for around 30 minutes.

Anyway, new from this forum, the Greendoor axiom : "all that is errect must wobble".
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
nicbordeaux
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re: Out of chaos arises order...

Post by nicbordeaux »

However, Greendor, your idea doesn't appear unfeasable at all. Take a European style 13 m cheapo carbon fishing pole, errect, place small 5-10 g weight on top, also a piece of cardboard or cloth for wind capture.

Over this slide a lager dia wobbler which is a solenoid. Mags on inner wobbler obviously. Induction generation. Outer wobbler will also wobble, "causing" more electricity.

Whole new realm of Wobble physics here. PW, PGWE, KWE...

No kidding, it would work, just a question of how much the wobbler units would deliver.

Might want to work two of those into the chaos generator, you know, oscilattor with pendulum, carbon fishing pole each end... Just dropping a pumpkin onto the ground might generate enormous amounts of energy.

Atached a real lousy "paint" job of fishing rod actions. Please, don't tell me it's an Attawood device and that I need to run tests with fishing weights and 0.14 mm fluo nylon :)
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carbon fishing pole dynamics as pertains to vertical wobbler energy generation in solenoid form or else.gif
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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