The Multi Lever Phenomenon is simple

[greendoor]

.....Newton's Cradle does not demonstrate this....this is the problem we are having at the moment.

A method is required to transfer all the momentum from the large mass to the smaller..........other than the cylinder and spheres.
...any ideas? <grin>

Regards

Mick

Mick - my quick reference to Newtons Cradle didn't really explain things very well. I made the reference to Newtons Cradle to introduce the subject of Momentum being a Conserved quantity. Which means that if we transfer or share momentum from a heavy mass to a light mass, the light mass has to move faster. (Yes - Momentum = Mass X Velocity)

The problem, as you correctly observe, is transfering all the Momentum from the Heavy mass to the Light mass. Pequaide has given us two methods - the Cylinder and Spheres, and the Bolas method.

Personally, I think the Bolas method matches with Bessler's description of the 'dog on a leash - straining as far as he can go'.

Remember that Impulse = Force x Time, and is equivalent and convertible with Momentum. If we connect a slow moving Heavy mass with a stationary Light mass via a rope, at the point where the rope tightens, the Force within the rope will be equally shared between the two masses for the equal amount of Time. That means for the duration of that Impulse, the Momentum gets shared equally.

With an Atwoods, we can generate as much surplus Momentum as we want by increased the Ratio between the masses. So even if we can't transfer All the momentum from Heavy to Light - we can at least transfer half by using the Bolas method. So providing we generate twice as much Momentum as we need, half is plenty.

Surplus Momentum can always be absorbed into a damping system, and used as surplus energy. Hydraulic or electromagnet systems spring to mind ...

The cylinder & spheres is superior, because it allows the total transfer of Momentum.

Something I notice about the nay-sayers who disagree with Pequaide is that they never seem to follow the complete recipe for success. The 3 components all need to be brought together to make it work. Bessler himself mentioned that his system depended on a correlation between the various components.

[nicbordeaux]

The liquid method is attractive, but as often there are drawbacks. The issue with my "seesaw" for registering/measuring is that even if the impact of the descending weight is dead suare, the seesaw travels through an arc and therefore some of the energy may be lost.

In the liquid scenario, i can imagine the weight of the actual "hose" being a problem, eg as the length of hose gets bigger it's weight is as much as the small "dropper weight", plus there is quite a bit of fiction over the wheel.

Possibly one could conceive a one sided measuring system with a vertical plunger impacted by the descending weight, and measure the rise of water column in a tube independant from "weight mech" ?

I'm not sure I grasp all the issues, but the unwinding test as described by Pequaide appears to involve different diameters, therfore a "gearing" or ratio element is involved, which might considerably false results ?

So maybe a hit onto a plunger/piston as described above would be the truest method. Especially if you can by prior to experiment testing rate the system with knwn weights dropped at different velocities, eg know what to subtract from the results for friction and other pesky details.

Nick

ps : of course I don't mind in the very least that any person without malicious intent modifies my awful "sketch", it's hardly a ground breaking innovation :)

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Greendoor

I have just worked out how to use Atwood machine to do real work! this may be a revelation moment or a naive moment, I will think it through first and post a drawing regardless of the out come, looks like a full weekend for me, with all these postings.

Thank you for bringing Atwoods machine to my attention and your excellent description of it.

Regards Trevor

[nicbordeaux]

Trevor, if you can get an atwood to perform work and reset itself with full potential, I'll stand you a beer, payment 5 quid by paypal :)

What is likley possible is to get some decent work out of a "atwood" type device sufficiently scaled up, but the efficiency in terms of input/output wouldn't be better than another system.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Nicbordeaux,

cheers but do not buy it just yet as I have not thought it all through,

Atwood will give insight to the multi lever wheels though, getting work from a balanced system with very little input!

Thank you for your kind other but first I must earn it.

Regards Trevor

[greendoor]

Nicb - I think the hydraulic approach can work (i've seen a patent for a gravity powered generator that is rather similar to what you propose). But hydrodynamics are very difficult to model mathematically. There is a lot of friction in fluids (it's called Viscosity among other things) and a lot of momentum will end up as heat. I think the beauty of purely mechanical systems is that less motion will be wasted. Pendulums and flywheels etc are very efficient. Springs, not so efficient. Hydraulics and Pneumatics, you start having to deal with thermodynamic issues more.

I really think the Bolas/Dog-leash method warrants more research, if the cylinder & spheres idea is beyond our skills or imagination. I'm fairly certain this is what Bessler used. An equal sharing of Momentum between Heavy and Light masses by virtue of equal Force over equal Time is very interesting to me ...

[DrWhat]

Just a mod on the last image I posted.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi DrWhat,

You now have the siphoning effect against you as well.

Regards Trevor

[DrWhat]

I know :) Thanks Trevor. I realise this is not a solution but it can get us thinking. Any idea can spur on newer ones.

Damian

[Reticon]

Since this follows with the same illusion I keep running into, the fact is, if 2 masses are connected in the configuration described with a fluid hose, the only "extra" energy upon ground impact will be relative to the difference between the 2 weights in the first place. Therefore, if you have enough imbalance between the two masses to cause a substantial amount of pressure on the ground then it's that much more mass that must be transferred, and which most likely cannot be transferred just by the impact. Remember, if the mass difference is only the amount of fluid in there then that is all you'll have, since much will be wasted in lifting the other half of the arrangement. Chicken & egg.

[path_finder]

Dear Trevor Lyn Whatford,
I don't know I this is related with your 'multilever phenomenon' but I found recently this animation in my archives.
I apologize for the 'Caesar courtesy', but I didn't recover the name of the author.
It is difficult to determine wich of the links must be rigid rods or variable springs.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Path_finder,

I have been off line for a week, although it looks like I have been signed in, thank you for taking the time to post the link, but I cannot get it to open for me, could you show me where to find it, because it is something I am interested in.

With thanks Trevor

[path_finder]

Finally I retrieved it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwyTUse02yk

[nneba]

Hello Everyone,

This concept certainly seems plausible, and Johann obviously worked on many simmilar devices before discovering "the way" There are so many variables, but one that I think sould be more closely examined is the use of non symetrical configurations...does anyone else agree?

nneba

[Fcdriver]

This is the basic Multi Lever device? The problem I see with this is that there are the same number of weights on the falling side as there are on the rising side. Since they are all locked to the axle via gears, they are forced to rotate together at the same speed. This would appear to be a guaranteed lock-up situation. I expect this would function as a solid flywheel with perhaps a small out-of-balance that would make it keel in one position.

Can you please explain this better if I have misunderstood.

This is not what I consider a multi lever device, in not any shape or form, this method amount to me as putting multiple out of balanced rings or disk, around in a circle. This type of method is not worth any further investigation. This is not in any way what I am doing.