Milkovic & your PM model...

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iacob alex
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Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

.....can be an interesting practical exercise,if you replace the swinging pendulum (Milkovic's "Two Stage Mechanical Oscillator" or "Hammer with a pendulum"),with your intended model to self-rotate.

The simple idea is to use ,not only the rotational torque ,but also the normal/radial N component of gravity,of the oscillaing fulcrum.

This test,can be provocative ,or even more...to find a possible next step in our look over PM subject.

There is no failure,except in no longer our will to try more and more...

All the best ! / Alex
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

...can be your unique "lucky" chance :as you are in a "waiting room" ,thinking to imagine a gravity self -powered simple machine(a "particular" lever...),in the same easy manner.

All the best! / Alex
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by sadiq attamish »

hi iacob alex
your idea is good & excellent, but i want to explain as below:
1-bessler did use the swinging pendulum was the same of the present mikovics"two-stage mechanical oscillator".but rather than lifting the separated weight up was lifting the rim of the wheel up in circle path.
2-for bessler when said hammer he was meaning also pendulum,so pendulum =hammer(only different because hit the side of the wheel so he call it hammer).
3-pendulum also help to make extra rotational torque.
i leave the rest of the design of running wheel to you.thanks
hi to all
i want to join the forum,thanks
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

...is an allusion to take as model Milkovic's simpleness,clearness.

In this manner,you need only:

- a lever

-two masses

The "hammer" mass plays as a reference (constant arm).

The "hanging /pendular" mass plays on a variable arm ( on every side of the reference ).Here we need a limited motion ,a "knee-joint" type.

You must only,to imagine an acting gravity torque difference on the same side of the fulcrum .

Milkovic plays a swinging motion...this time we are expecting for a continuous rotary pulsatory movement.

All the best! / Alex
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

......this time with some "fresh news" (01-07-13) from US (J.Perry},at:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaCYTu66BzA

The proposal is about the self-swinging motion of the pendulum,in some manner:a flywheel....or maybe a trigger timing pulse arrangement?!

Our problem can be this: if it's possible to evolve,develop gradually this "starting point" into a gravity motor.

All the best! / Alex
Last edited by iacob alex on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by Grimer »

iacob alex wrote:...is an allusion to take as model Milkovic's simpleness,clearness.

In this manner,you need only:

- a lever

-two masses

The "hammer" mass plays as a reference (constant arm).

The "hanging /pendular" mass plays on a variable arm ( on every side of the reference ).Here we need a limited motion ,a "knee-joint" type.

You must only,to imagine an acting gravity torque difference on the same side of the fulcrum .

Milkovic plays a swinging motion...this time we are expecting for a continuous rotary pulsatory movement.

All the best! / Alex
I thought in terms of an elbow joint but I think your analogy of a knee joint is better since it suggests a kick.

Possibly all one needs is to modify the Milkovic pendulum. The hammer is analogous to the high inertia frame and earth. One probably has to lower the inertia of the frame so that the asymmetry of the swing can be taken out as a series of pulses. There's plenty of scope for increasing the efficiency of the pendulum - denser bob, more streamlined, etc.

Thanks for pointing up the relevance of the Milkovic pedulum to the generation of 3rd order energy.

A perpetual pendulum will be a much easier first step than a full blown wheel.

A very perceptive post. Thanks Alex.
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by preoccupied »

I made a video about Milkovic's pendulum. It's posted in my drawings posts and a link to the video is here:

drawings by preoccupied
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 884#105884

restarting two stage oscillator
http://youtu.be/kaCYTu66BzA
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

.....at: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qot30pWwqAo&lis ... 4i2J84jiQw

It's an explanation of a practical man .with a simple and clear insight into the topic of Milkovic's "hammer with a pendulum (two stage oscillator ).

I hope it can be helpful for the members of this forum,in some manner.

All the best ! / Alex
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

.....this time ,the proposal is to replace the swinging motion of a pendulum { Milkovic arrangement /pendulum-lever system ),at:

www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html

with a spinning pendulum ,at: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXRo7UqtEIk

The problem is : can we syncronize the up-down motions of the two ends of the lever,so to get a "self" spinning of the pendulum ?

If so,we have the "minimal" symbol/design of a gravity motor...

All the best ! / Alex
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by Grimer »

I have just seen why a Milkovic Pendulum does indeed harness gravitational energy.

It can be shown by the same argument that applies to the Keenie when its weight which becomes unbalanced by the release of the single weight at 180° is supported by an earth connection.

I'll try to present the argument as simply as possible.

You can divide the arc of the pendulum into three parts.

A middle part, the bottom section of the swing where the hammer is lifted out of contact with its anvil.

And the two end parts where the hammer is resting on its anvil.

It is these two end parts where gravity is being harnessed since it is putting energy into the system asymmetrically. It is putting energy into the pendulum but not into the hammer because the anvil is supporting the hammer and preventing it from falling which it otherwise would to balance the system.

I am so delighted to have sorted that one out. I've always had a feeling that there was something in the Milkovic pendulum but I could never quite put my finger on it till now.

So we have a BOGOF situation with the Milkovic and the Keenie. Proof of one supports proof of the other.
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by Grimer »

It will be relatively simple to experimentally demonstrate perpetual motion with the Milkovic pendulum; much easier than with the Keenie.

A pendulum has the big advantage over a falling weight of very high efficiency, i.e. it has the equivalent of a very high coefficient of restitution. This means that only a small amount of energy is needed to keep it swinging (which is of course exactly the point Milky was always hammering on about).

In the traditional long case pendulum clock the small amount of energy is provided by the falling weight where the weight falls and the clock is stationary.

Now in the case of the Milkovic the clock rises and the ground is stationary.
So arranging for a ground connection to feed energy into the pendulum via a clock escapement mechanism one can get "reset" of the pendulum and continuous motion.

One needs to have a very solid and massive anvil - just as they have in testing the Coefficient of Restitution of golf and table tennis balls - in order that minimum energy is lost by the hammer impact.

Should be a doddle to prove.
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Post by Grimer »

Here is a video of a supersize Milkovic pendulum where it's easy to see what is going on....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC6Qlj1M ... sults_main

..... especially if you download download your own copy with Clipgrab and step through it one frame at a time.
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by iacob alex »

Hi Grimer !
Thanks for the movie...I know and I like so much his contribution ,it's a so nice and friendly presence.

Some people are co unique , rare!

This simple mechanical "composition" ( lever+pendulum=oscillatory leverage),you can play in so many ways...

...one of them you can find at the last message (look at "Shape and size..." topic),a real Sky Marvel.

All the best ! / Alex
Last edited by iacob alex on Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Grimer »

Nice and pleasant, yes - but an efficient set up for demonstrating perpetual motion, definitely not.

Large amounts of energy are being wasted on that plank.

The wire supporting the weight vibrates horribly; more energy lost.

The leverage is too small which means he has to employ a much heavier pendulum than he need. These two factors combined means the gain is lower.

Last, but not least the junctions of the bucket bob with the "shaft" and the shaft with the wheel seem to be hinged which makes the action unnecessarily complicated.

However, the size is good and the frame is pretty rigid - and it does demonstrate the essential principle at work.
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re: Milkovic & your PM model...

Post by Wubbly »

Here's a VM2SO experiment where the movement from the pendulum-end of the lever was rerouted back into the tail-end of the lever. The initial movement always dampened out resulting in no energy gain.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 6899#96899
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