The Laws of Perpetual Motion

[Unbalanced]

It is easy to be swayed by conventional wisdom and the robust laws of physics into believing the improbability of a gravity only device.

In my estimation you either accept these facts as immutable or like many of us, you consider the very real prospect that there is a configuration for which these laws and wisdom simply do not apply.

Bessler spoke of the "laws of perpetual motion" which lends credence to the prospect that when the proper configuration is found that it will function under physical laws that we are currently unfamiliar with.

Rather than designing to satisfy the accepted laws of physics, we should perhaps contemplate what the laws of perpetual motion would be if indeed they existed and design to satisfy these new laws.

I propose this new thread to discus the hypothetical (theoretical) laws of Perpetual Motion as if they were laws that had little or no relation to known physics. This would exceed my abilities in the math department but math would be a likely place to start.

A state where entropy has little or no footing.

I ask you, What would the law of perpetual motion look like? Would it be the opposite of Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics?

[FunWithGravity2]

Can we call one of the chapters/laws

Large amplitude Anharmonic parametric osclilators and their non linear gravitational resonant frequencies in relation to time ?


or


Coupled odd sympathy gravitational wave amplification ?

or


Gravitational angular momentum generation between anharmonic rotational reference frames.



Just joshing, but since its hypothetical i would think combining lots of current operations in non traditional ways and "imagining" ways of circumventing system conservation might be a way to start.


Crazy Dave

[nneba]

Hi All,

Great subject Unbalanced, I like your line of thinking. This is the only way that we will get ahead. Cleanse yourself of your education, for the answers to this mystery are to be found within, not from an external source. (much as with true spiritual perception)

I feel that pm is an anomoly found in nature, relating closely to movement of both the cosmos, and particles on the mollecular level.

I wonder what types of scientic advancements could be made once this technology is developed, that is exciting!

nneba :)

[Unbalanced]

This is the only way that we will get ahead. Cleanse yourself of your education, for the answers to this mystery are to be found within, not from an external source. (much as with true spiritual perception)

In times when I really feel as though I am getting close to the solution of PM
I do indeed feel as though I am on the verge of total enlightenment. As though the curtain has been drawn back and the universe is beckoning me to fall in. Kinda like twenty-minutes after I ate those suspicious mushrooms.

I didn't anticipate a turn into the realm of infinite possibility when I started this thread but it seems inevitable as though they are part and parcel.

[path_finder]

IMHO a single law (I prefer almost 'rule') for the 'perpetual motion':
a permanent feedback control of the original metastable status

[Unbalanced]

Path_finder wrote:

a permanent feedback control of the original metastable status

Brillant start, how about:

A continuous positive feedback loop of the original metastable status.

This removes the control and opens the possibility to infinite acceleration

"Positive" to emphasize a lack of the presence of entropy

Touching on the realm of Black Holes

[path_finder]

The trivial example is given by a soccer ball with a mouse inside.
Put this ball on the upper rim of your wheel at 12:00.
You get a metastable status for your ball/mouse
Suppose now your mouse hates the way down and when this happens she runs upward (eventually in opposite direction).

Remember the clue of the 'kids jumping from one pillar to another' playing on the street.
It could be a big interest to verify if this is a correct translation of the original old german words (Stewart, many thanks in advance).
'pillars' are not 'crutches'
Now in the hamster wheel, replace the pet inside the wheel by a kid running upon some crutches, and permanently compensing its position by a speed variation of its ride.
You get a gravitic wheel

[nneba]

Agreed,

In some form this will certainly play a factor

[jim_mich]

The four principles, or laws of thermodynamics are:

• The zeroth law of thermodynamics provides a basic definition of empirical temperature based on the principle of thermal equilibrium. If two thermodynamic systems are each in thermal equilibrium with a third system, then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other.
• The first law of thermodynamics mandates conservation of energy and states in particular that the flow of heat is a form of energy transfer. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same. For a thermodynamic cycle the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system.
• The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated macroscopic system never decreases, or, equivalently, that perpetual motion machines are impossible. When two isolated systems in separate but nearby regions of space, each in thermodynamic equilibrium in itself, but not in equilibrium with each other at first, are at some time allowed to interact, breaking the isolation that separates the two systems, and they exchange matter or energy, they will eventually reach a mutual thermodynamic equilibrium. The sum of the entropies of the initial, isolated systems is less than or equal to the entropy of the final exchanging systems. In the process of reaching a new thermodynamic equilibrium, entropy has increased, or at least has not decreased. In a few words, the second law states "spontaneous natural processes increase entropy overall." Another brief statement is "heat can spontaneously flow from a higher-temperature region to a lower-temperature region, but not the other way around." Entropy is increased also by processes of mixing without transfer of heat.
• The third law of thermodynamics concerns the entropy of a perfect crystal at absolute zero temperature, and implies that it is impossible to cool a system to exactly absolute zero. As temperature approaches absolute zero, the entropy of a system approaches a minimum.

Laws #0 and #3 are not relevant to our quest. Focus on Laws #1 and #2. How can a wheel operate in a manner that seemingly breaks these law.

For instance, the second law says heat only flows from hot to cold and never the other way. Yet, in certain instances involving CF, kinetic energy can and does flow from a slower moving object having lower KE to a faster moving object having higher KE. If the KE was in the form of heat instead of motion, then it would specifically break this second law. And yet, it DOES break the spirit of the second law. So, either the second law is not always valid, or it only applies to limited situations, such as heat engines.

The first law concerns conservation of energy in heat engines and other thermal processes. It has been extended to include ALL processes. But does it hold true in all situations, specifically those involving only interactive motions of multiple objects?

[Unbalanced]

Path_Finder Wrote:

Remember the clue of the 'kids jumping from one pillar to another' playing on the street.

If I am not mistaken that line about the kids on the pillars came from
http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html

written by Ramananda and the preface of that Dialogue states that it is a fanciful interpretation to make a hazy story fun to read. Like getting the history of the South Pacific from James Mitchner.

If I am wrong and there is actually more to the children and pillars than is found in the AP line "Children play among the pillars
with loud heavy clubs." I would really like to know about it because this "story" wound my clock.

I need to digest what you are referring to about the hapless mouse before I can comment.

[Unbalanced]

Jim_Mich Wrote:

the second law says heat only flows from hot to cold and never the other way.

So perhaps the second law of Perpetual Motion should state something to the effect that:

Heat only flows from cold to hot or that it doesn't flow at all, I feel I am missing the mark but not the point.

Excellent as usual Jim and thanks for the clarification. It was the 2nd law I was referring to above.

[rlortie]

When it is below freezing outside and some one leaves the door open, I swear that I feel the cold being drawn in, not the heat being pulled out!

Things with gradient flow from positive to negative. Cold air is more dense than warm air, therefore cold dense air is the positive flowing to the lighter warm air.

If you stand in the open doorway are you hit with the heat rushing out or the cold rushing in? I stick to the latter.

Ralph

[nneba]

Ok,

"energy can not be can not be created nor destroyed"

So how then can anyone say indefinitely that P.M. is impossible? the above statement seems to verify the possibility that pm can be done.

...as far as I am concerned

[Unbalanced]

"energy can not be created nor destroyed"

but is has to come from somewhere and be converted to our purposes.

I have been looking for the inverse of Newton's 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Would it be fair to say that the The 2nd Law of Perpetual Motion should include a line such as:

Energy can be created and destroyed.

I like the ring of this one. It seems the end effect would be quite similar, as long as we destroyed as much energy as we created.

Liked the heat transfer analogy Ralph the more dense, colder mass of air displaces the warmer less dense mass of air. We got inversions in PM land.

[nneba]

ohh....go lean against a wall!

LOL