Wheel vs. lever...

[iacob alex]

.....is a simple face to face inquirer about the compatibility and us efulness of a concept,in relation with the topic of this forum;

http://upload.wikipedia.org/wikipedia/c ... etuum1.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet

All the best! / Alex

[iacob alex]

.....is a simple face to face inquirer,about the compatibility and usefulness of a concept,in relation with the topic of this forum:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... etuum1.png
face to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet

All the best! / Alex

[Richard]

jacob alex..

I'm thinking there is a conflict in this application..

Where one requires "storing" energy" the other is a "continuos application of energy"

sync and timing are not obtainable..are they?

richard

[iacob alex]

Hi !
I see no contradiction : we have the same "tempo" (long charge-short discharge).

Even more: a gravity powered device, inspired from a "trebuchet " prime line ,can have a longer charge time (around a full/~360*...as a matter of fact, is the longest possible one!).

But here,the discussion is about the "classical" long arm-short arm "self"-switch:

-in the bottom position ,a long arm moves into short arm so easy ,due to gravity...this is well known.

-in the top position,a short arm can change into a long arm,again ...simply,due to a "trebuchet suggestion":a hanging pendulum can be "pushed by inertia" into an inverted pendulum. After all,it seems to be the only one "obstacle " for a "self-motion".

All the best! / Alex

[Richard]

jacob alex..

summary first is ...long arm / short arm... easy to posistion at bottom, when the " individual weight" has expended its greatest Ke and falls to its greatest Pe...and is then carried...sacrificing some inertial, angular momentum..and or fictitious force(s) of the wheel..

Summary second is...short arm / long arm..."reset"...the mechanical inclination is based on a trebuchet...and assumption ( my part) is that Pe must be built...and Besslers part...to lift always with lightning speed..

I wonder if...?

..the mechanics of a clock, striking train, was built into the pendule from central axis to the top wheel...employing a hammer, to smack the weight back in to the long arm posistion, at the 12 o'clock posistion.

I'm inclined to believe that any stored Pe that would allow a trebuchet action to exist...must be found between the axle and top wheel. Further this action would be one of synchronization..?


richard

[iacob alex]

Hi !

A solution similar to a trebuchet (a "particular " lever...) has two advantages:

-a single variable arm

-a "prolonged" fall (from 0* to 180*,than from 180* to~360*)

After a full turning motion,we need a brief-time "self" for the variable arm(short arm into long arm ).

If so...we have an incessant motion,due to gravity and inertia.

All the best! / Alex

[Richard]

jacob alex..

..do you have concerns, about some chaos, in using several such levers at the perimeter of the wheel....

...I am assuming articulated lever arms...not angle.

...the action I envision here is that of a gymnast doing reverse tucks on the un-even parallel bars...in this case..several reverse tucks on a wheel..

I think this will create a kinetic confusion...halting the motion?

richard

[iacob alex]

Hi !
My proposal was clear and easy:to simplify ,minimize any kind of "wheel" (many spokes) design,into a "lever" (two spoles only:one is constant,the opposite is variable).

If the hub is eccentric,we really can play a single (variable) arm,as a body-tail robotic "creature".

A trebuchet,as a "particular" lever is a workable mechanism,fit to my proposal...between others.

We can change the design,only:not to catapult "outside",but "inside" (short arm into long arm...the only one problem of a self motion due to gravity and inertia).

All the best! / Alex

[Richard]

jacob alex..

..yes...your proposal was much more clear than my memory:)

..it is good you and I have both the same vision of movement..I.E. specifically "inside".

clearly I had forgotten the "many spokes" become two opposing...forgive me ...

please help me here...where you indicate "Particular" is this the same as when I indicate "Articulating" lever?

richard

[iacob alex]

Hi!
Really:"the particular" (trebuchet's variable/sling arm) is in the same category with "articulated" lever (human's leg,arm).

In the history of PM,this proposal is the most prevailing...nothing new.

My opinionl was to play a concept lever(two opposite arms,only:a fixed,reference arm with a counterweight and a weight with an articulated,variable arm)...not a wheel concept (many spokes).

In this manner,a trebuchet can be modified,adapted in a new,simple design: the rope becomes a small arm ,that plays short-long (PM "obssesion"!!!) in relation with the fulcrum,due to gravity and inertia.

There are same "toys" on net/youtube (take a look at "Two sticks game" topic ),that plays "variable lever"...

All the best! / Alex

[Richard]

one..synchronous motion through 360 dg...

I seek this now for and with Ralph...270 dg. lever..Grimer...Kiiking weight..and here...A Particular lever....

in this I believe we seek the "acrobat"

richard

I will put aside my work monsters..and seek something more graceful..

thank you

richard

[Richard]

jacob alex...

..having given much consideration to (the above post)..I have concluded...

...we must "Balance" the wheel in order to sustain the motion..

...a central axle pivot..with equal weight at equal distance (kids on a teeter totter) that has no ground beneath.

...once the motion starts...it only requires a "Tap" from an outer wheel to keep it running.

richard

[iacob alex]

Hi !
The essence of a trebuchet up motion,for the long varible arm is a "whip effect".

A long variable arm of a lever (the other arm is a counterweight ) can assume the same kind of up thrust?!

If this motion is "self" (due to gravity and inertia,only),we have a "key"...

All the best! / Alex

[Richard]

jacob alex...

if you would use a trebuchet with a long arm / short arm...Then I would suggest the following:

...heavy counter weight at axle

...a curvature to the long swing arm

..an opposite curvature to the short swing arm

..weight the end of small arm to about 1/4 of the counter balance weight

here is the proposed action...................

Heavy counter weight falls from 12 to 6 (hugging axle)

long swing arm "scoops" weight of short arm into it cradle posistion ascending

...............

heavy counter weight should make it pass 6 and at same time...

short swing arm and weight fall open...(out of long swing arm cradle)

this added leverage and cf should carry the day


richard

[iacob alex]

Hi !
If the whole is simpler than the sum of its parts,than a trebuchet is nothing more than a "particular" lever (fixed arm and variable arm).

With the fixed arm,we have no dispute...

We have a single problem: the "self" change of the variable arm.

All the best! / Alex