KE PE and torque effect?

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raj
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KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

A simple brainteaser for my forum friends.
Below are two identical drawing showing equal weights moving up and down equal heights on a wheel, whereby KE loss equals PE gain and vice versa, in both drawings.
No work has been done, it seems.
But are the end torque effects on the wheel on both drawing equal?
IF yes, kindly explain why?
If no, again kindly explain why?
This question has been the logical basis for my search for an overbalanced wheel.
Raj
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K.E  P.E and positions.JPG
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eccentrically1
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Post by eccentrically1 »

The torque on the right wheel is less because the acceleration toward the center in the wheel on the right is slower than the wheel on the left.
Last edited by eccentrically1 on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by path_finder »

Dear raj,
I don't see any gain of energy, and whatever the value of the torque, how do you relocate the eccentered weight at the top of the rim?
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I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by Richard »

where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

I am answering your question as I feel it.
All the learned arguments professed by physics academics against the possibility of ever having an overbalanced wheel is their claim that any weight going down and coming up back the same height has only exchange PE for KE and vice versa (less friction!)
In my drawings above, we have two identical weights: one going down on the clockwise side and one going up on the counter-clockwise side, both travelling the same height.
But the positions of the ascending weights on the two drawings are different. If the positions of the two weights on the second drawing can be changed by some direction changing means, then there will be some torque effect that would make the wheel turn a bit further, as you have well shown with your red markings.
By the same unknown direction changing means, we can make many ascending weights on a wheel return to their top starting heights, thereby completing their exchange of PE, KE and vice versa BUT all through their ascent back, each ascending weight will contribute to maintain the continuous torque effect.
What is that some direction changing means, I do not know if it exist.
For now, I can only think of an intricate system of strings that can be used to control the movements of the weights,i.e when to rest, when to move and in what direction, very much like puppets on strings like in trapeze acts.
This is my seroius belief for now.
I look forward to more discussions.
Raj
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Post by eccentrically1 »

This is what's confusing about circular acceleration; when the weights move towards the center of rotation, their contribution to torque is reduced; their acceleration decreases. When the weights touch the axis their contribution to torque are at a minimum. When we try to force a change in their direction, they resist that change, and that resistance cancels any gain from their new position in the wheel. Does that make sense?
Last edited by eccentrically1 on Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by Richard »

eccentrically1

this might help...

..when considering how torque applies in a wheel situation (where weight is the torque modifier)...break it down to a simple lever, frame of reference...

also if you have not already....check out the above link.

richard
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by ruggerodk »

Dear Raj,

Not even Prof. 8.01 W. Lewin can reason why and how this could possibly be the very path that JB followed.

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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

Hello again.
The drawing below is self-explanatory, showing a weight going down a certain height by one route and returning back up the same height by another route, but to a different horizontal position.
If this weight motion were to happen inside a rotating wheel, WOULD there be different torqure effect on the wheel?
YES or NO ?
Has there been any work done?
YES or NO ?
Regards.
Raj
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

I started searching for answers to a concept question four years ago
to-date.

I have NOW found the answer in my GRAVITY wheel concept on my 'MAYDAY' thread.

Raj
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Post by ME »

Picture[Tue 28 Jun, 2011 13:22 ]: If one of the weights (either the left or the right) is resting on the wheel - the wheel rotates (that's PE->KE), that weight will be lowered in the process, and needs PE to get back.
So I guess the inner weight goes around the axle.
How do you plan to get the inner weight to the outer position again?
Even in the best possible scenario (KE-->PE) (no friction and stuff) this cannot be done in a repetitive way.

As an example:
Take a perfect mathematical bicycle wheel (no friction etc) with the valve on top.
When perfectly aligned at the top, it will not move, because the force-vector goes straight down through the axle.
Now rotate this wheel 1 atom to the left (don't mind the temperature factors), keep it still and let go.
It will rotate and ends up at the top... 1 atom to the right at the absolute maximum possible mathematical position.
That's PE-->KE-->PE, doing a pendulum action.

Unless you start with some potential energy, and it can replenish itself during rotation (perhaps your spring-design will do this trick?). Basically that's what I talk about in my "Importance of raising weights"-thread; The need for PE; KE will follow.

In your first-post picture there's a worse situation.
The left side can only be raised up to get into the inner position; loosing PE (the path-vector is diagonally up). When this action is delayed until the last moment, that weight still needs to be forced to go to the inner position horizontally... this 'forcing' is still a form of PE, and the 'going' a form of KE. You can also do it later, loosing PE for sure. As Path_Finder remarked, you still want it to go back to the outer position, which needs PE.
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

Thanks again.

The point I was making at that time, was : '' IF the weights could be forced to change their orbital path to get nearer to the axle, one at a time, by themselves on the ascending side and return to their place on the rim on the descending side of the wheel, THEN we could posiibly have PM.

I had NOT said how this self orbital changing could be done. I was only questioning what IF IT COULD be done.

Now after so long, I know it cannot be done with just a single rotating wheel.

I believe my gravity wheel concept, on my 'MAYDAY' thread has answered my own question by NOT USING only a single wheel, we can make the weights change their orbital path around a wheel by their own swinging.

Raj
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Post by ME »

ME: How do you plan to get the inner weight to the outer position again?
Raj: I had NOT said how this self orbital changing could be done.
Indeed, the HOW is beyond the first step; It was a poor way of saying: Where do you get the energy from.

As I try to explain in My thread(:-): IF one could put things horizontally in a visual beneficial position and treat the wheel like it is a lever, it is still a pointless exercise; no matter how many wheels you use;

I think it still comes down to PE-problem for an OverBalanced Wheel. Or otherwise a PE-storage method (like springs), or perhaps some other class, let's call that an KE/inertial-drive, but that's symantics.

Nevertheless, I'm still looking forward for your build though...
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

My dear ME,

I have said so many times on this forum, my knowledge of physics is just basic while I am learning a lot on this forum.

On the otherhand, I try to use my logics.

1. Weight A going down height H, in vertical path, we lose PE.
2. Weight B going up height H, in vertical path, we gain PE lost above.
No work done.
No torque gain.

3. Weight A going down height, H, in a curve path, further away from the axle of a wheel, on the descending side, we lose PE.
4. Weight B going up height H, in different curve path, nearer to the axle of the wheel, on the ascending side, we gain PE. lost above.
No work done?
Torque GAINED ...(weight A is NOW further away from axle of wheel and weight B is nearer the axle of wheel, having moved down and up the same height H.

Weight A and Weight B swinging in wheel, can swap place every 180 degrees turn, because the wheel is not a SEESAW or LEVER.

Raj
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re: KE PE and torque effect?

Post by raj »

To all,

See my post on my 'Mayday' thread today.

It shows what I am trying to explain above.

Raj
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Gravity wheel - two swinging weights 020815 032.jpg
Gravity wheel - two swinging weights 020815 031.jpg
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