The Rubber Band Motor

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

rlortie wrote:Grimer,

IIRC not all his wheels were covered with canvas. some had veneer to cover the mechanism-s within.

What I find amusing is that the word for 'veneer' in German means 'camouflage' as used in marquetry inlay found in the popular
Baroque furniture of the time.

Ralph
I don't remember that, Ralph. Can you give me a reference/link, please.
Last edited by Grimer on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jim_mich
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7467
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:02 am
Location: Michigan
Contact:

Post by jim_mich »

Grimer wrote:This seemed a rather insubstantial protection from inquisitive eyes. Why not use planking, say.
Bessler's early smaller wheels had wood coverings. This would have added a lot of weight to his later bigger wheels. So he switched to a heavy stiff waxed cloth, what we today would call canvas.

This canvas covering did not support the wheel. It would have played no role in any RBM type situation.
Grimer wrote:I don't remember that, Ralph. Can you give me a reference/link, please.

Grimer, open up your copy of PM-AAMS and do a word search.


Image
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

Thanks, Jim. I've found the reference to "thin wooden planks".

I suppose by having some overlapping pelmet at the rim Bessler could have disguised any movement of the rim relative to the axle.
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

Mmm... Just noticed. In drawing those spokes I got something wrong. I 'spose I could always claim it was only meant to be representational - but it wasn't. Image


I'll go away and correct it before someone else spots it and upbraids me. Image
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

jim_mich wrote:
Grimer wrote: ...
This canvas covering did not support the wheel. It would have played no role in any RBM type situation. ...
Exactly so. Presumably the planking was only there as a cover and had no need to be attached rigidly to the rim thus allowing the heavy circular rim to move its centre relative to the axle.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
Richard
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:34 pm
Location: Bakers Mills NY

re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Richard »

Grimer....

Why not ignore a shifting CoG altogether..

..if the spin disk and RBM principal was your primary aim, then it is only a force at right angle to axis that would allow a sustained motion

Certainly not a powerful application, although speeds would exceed those of mass / weight reset types?

richard
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Grimer »

Without shifting the CG how is angular momentum going to be conserved?

I assume that you agree angular momentum has to be conserved.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Grimer »

I thought this post from last August was worth reprinting here. In view of the wheel-earth angular momentum balancing contribution it's beginning to look as though Bessler's Wheel could be a boundary case of gravity assist.

=====================================

Grimer wrote:
greendoor wrote:http://www.gravityassist.com/

Wow ... I had never thought about it this way before ...

Prior to 1961, it was believe that man could never explore the whole solar system, because we couldn't carry enough energy to fuel a rocket. Nuclear rockets were considered, but they could engineer them - and still haven't.

But due to the work of Dr Michael Minovitch, we now use gravity to propel spacecraft anywhere we want to go - with unlimited free energy.

Surely this provides a clue that gravity can indeed be exploited as a free energy source.

Very interesting. Thanks for that.

It seems to me that if you can do it with rockets you must be able to do it with other bodies in closer proximity to the earth. We also have a three body problem - Newtonian Gravity, Ersatz Gravity (CF) and the earth's reaction force which is not generally in line with NG (example - body rolling down a slope). It also shows us where Bessler's energy comes from doesn't it - change in the earth's momentum - which removes an intellectual barrier to the idea of getting energy from gravity.

Good find. Very intellectually stimulating. Thanks again.


=====================================
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Mark
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 548
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:18 am
Location: USA - California

Re: re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Mark »

Grimer wrote:I assume that you agree angular momentum has to be conserved.
Pardon my unsolicited two pennies worth of opinion, Frank, but actually, no!

I'm currently working toward a solution (well, I can hope, eh?) which is based on the fact that conservation of angular momentum can be suspended, even if only temporarily.
envision, describe, simplify, construct, refine -- repeat any, as necessary
rlortie
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8475
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:20 pm
Location: Stanfield Or.

re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by rlortie »

Objects executing motion around a point possess a quantity called angular momentum. This is an important physical quantity because all experimental evidence indicates that angular momentum is rigorously conserved in our Universe: it can be transferred, but it cannot be created or destroyed. For the simple case of a small mass executing uniform circular motion around a much larger mass (so that we can neglect the effect of the center of mass) the amount of angular momentum takes a simple form. As the adjacent figure illustrates the magnitude of the angular momentum in this case is L = mvr, where L is the angular momentum, m is the mass of the small object, v is the magnitude of its velocity, and r is the separation between the objects.
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect ... ngmom.html
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Re: re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Grimer »

Mark wrote:
Grimer wrote:I assume that you agree angular momentum has to be conserved.
Pardon my unsolicited two pennies worth of opinion, Frank, but actually, no!

I'm currently working toward a solution (well, I can hope, eh?) which is based on the fact that conservation of angular momentum can be suspended, even if only temporarily.
And the best of British luck on that one.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Mark
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 548
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:18 am
Location: USA - California

Post by Mark »

I'll presume that that isn't sarcasm and say Thank You, kind sir.

But I'm sure that luck isn't necessary, it'll either work or it won't.
Richard
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:34 pm
Location: Bakers Mills NY

re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Richard »

the only thing more dogmatic than a single verse of scripture expounded upon, is the conclusion(s) drawn to empiricals of science..

angular momentum conserved?..no, of course not. how silly this is.
I.e. if the force and / or the mass is a value, given to transfer, into and out of the momentum of an object...how is this conservative?
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Grimer »

I have quoted the following post from a previous thread in full because it is relevant to Trevor's experiments.
Grimer wrote:The following is a short .mp4 video of a Rubber Band Motor. I find the link is a bit flaky for me but it does work eventually.

http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q171 ... otor-1.mp4


This motor is normally described as a heat engine.

But if you think about it the source of heat is only required to replace losses. The energy exchange within the rubber band is adiabatic and therefore if the bands are well insulated the lengths will oscillate from short on the ascending side to long on the descending side.

This oscillation means that the maximum torque for the motor will occur at the oscillation speed of the rubber bands. The way the Bessler reaches a regular speed suggests that the same consideration applies there. In other words, even if all friction and air resistance were to be removed the Bessler would not accelerate indefinitely but merely accelerate to the resonant speed of its internal mechanism.

For a long time I could see there was a possible flaw to the above argument. As far as the 9 and 3 o'clock positions are concerned there's no problem but what about the 12 and 6 o'clock states. Surely the weight of the wheel rim will lead to shortening of the 12 and lengthening of the 6 bands and consequent loss of gravitational potential.

Then recently I realised the importance of Bill Beaty's discovery on the subject. He found that the heating and cooling effect was concentrated right at the end of the band stretch. But that it the point where the material stiffens up enormously. This huge increase in modulus of elasticity means that any deflection in minimal and in the limit negligible compared to the gain in energy from the gravitational imbalance.

It also explains why, with the exception of the RBM illustrated above, the motors shown on YouTube are generally crap. It seems that to make a half decent motor one has to understand what is going on.


To sum up then, the rubber band motor does not need to get heat from the atmosphere or dump heat to the atmosphere if the band are insulated Carnot style. Energy exchange is between the atoms and the long chain molecules within the rubber and is adiabatic. In other words no heat enters the rubber band from the outside or leaves the rubber bands to the outside.

The spinner toy sometimes known as the Humdinger or Whirler is a good example of the hierarchical energy exchange which takes place within the rubber band. It is particularly useful macro model for understanding what's taking place at the micro scale.

The toy comprises a stiff card with two holes drilled at the centre and a loop of string threaded through the holes. To play grab the two loop ends and pull your hands apart so that a loop end rests behind the joint of each of your middle fingers. Position the disk so that it's centred slack on the string, then start spinning the toy away from you until the string on either side has several twists in it."

Pulling rhythmically on the loops spins the disk at high speed. As the speed of the disk increases, the string shortens, and vice versa.

Image

The motion of the disk/spinner represents the rotational energy of the atoms in the long-chain rubber molecules. The motion of the disk/atom oscillator is analogous to the motion of a pendulum oscillator, the big difference being, of course the angle through which each oscillator turns. The pendulum oscillator turns through a fraction of 2pi. The disk oscillator turns through N times 2pi where N is some large number.

The other difference is that a pendulum oscillates between Newtonian gravity and Ersatz gravity potential whereas the disk/atom oscillates between molecular and atomic strain energy.

One interesting thing about the action of the spinner/atom is that in the limit the rotational energy tends to c and the gravitational mass tends to zero. Even in the case of the RBM the mass of the elastic bands in negligible in relation to the mass of the steel bicycle rim.

I suppose that equipped with a good enough laboratory so that one could run an RBM on magnetic bearings in a vacuum chamber together with rubber bands of negligible hysteresis loss one could prove that the RBM is indeed a true gravity engine and does not need an input of heat to run. But such an experimental proof is not necessary for our purposes. All that is needed is to recognise the logical possibility and then to consider how the principle embodied in the RBM can be emulated in a Bessler type mill.

A swinging heavy 4lb lump of lead is virtually adiabatic in operation. I get the feeling the FWG's torn trouser video may be on the way to such a pendulum solution.
The RBM maybe a really crap energy generator (like existing fusion reactors) in requiring a much greater energy input than its energy output. Nevertheless it is a gravity mill. Lay it on its side and it won't work.

One it tempted to say all that is needed is pendulums 180° or 90° out of phase on each side of the axle. But I think that is too simple and smacks of the traditional failing of PM machines. The RBM has two independent variables in addition to gravity. We may need to introduce another independent variable. NG and two dimensional EG are may not be enough.

The rattleback is a good model to think about. Its enigmatic behaviour depends on the relation between three mutually orthogonal axes with a hierarchy of inertias.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Ed
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2049
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:13 pm
Contact:

re: The Rubber Band Motor

Post by Ed »

Nice. "The seer sees, the cobbler that cobbled". Well done Grimer! It's got to take a prize for most economical build.

Image
Post Reply