The Keno Bessler Connection

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rocky
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The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rocky »

I have been watching on American TV the summer show called “Buried Treasure� where the Keno brothers (Leigh and Leslie) from Sotheby’s Auctions and the Antiques Roadshow travel to homes in America to evaluate antiques in the persons home. We learned from past posts from forum member Doc (docfeelsgood) that he believes they are the direct descendents of Bessler and that the Keno’s great grandfather, Albert Keno (called Pop Kennie) had a working Perpetual Motion machine (buzzsaw) of which Doc has the main parts.

I was amazed of how the twin brothers look exactly like Bessler. I put a composite photo together to compare them. I see the same bone structure in the face. They both have the same eyes, nose, cheekbones and dimple on the chin. I thought I would do a poll to see what you think …

I had forgotten that Doc’s dad heard from inventor Albert Keno that Bessler had John Rowley, Master of Mechanics to King George I of England, murdered because when Rowley visited Kassel he believed Bessler’s wheel was real and after inspecting it, could make a duplicate. Bessler had his brother Gottfried spy on Rowley along with Rowley’s apprentice, Wright, who was a relative of Bessler from his mother’s side. When they saw the wheel was near completion, they killed Rowley and disposed of the wheel. The inventor’s father, Frank Keno, lived with the Wright’s descendants in New England.

Doc said that 30 years ago in the inventor’s daughter’s house that he held in his hands Johann Bessler’s original MT book and original homemade book of notes. Since the German museum at Kassel also has the original MT book and engravings, Bessler must have had copies. Since the inventor Albert Keno made a working Perpetual Motion machine, the secret must have been with these original drawings. This proves that the Keno’s are direct blood relatives of Bessler. There seems to be two theories of how inventor Albert Keno (Pop Keenie) got the secret plans for the machine:

1. Bessler’s daughter Catherine married a Crone and had a daughter that married a Kienow (Keno in America) and she had a copy of the MT and original notes and passed the secret machine drawings down through the generations until Albert Keno saw the ancient MT book and original Bessler notes and built the machine.

2. Rowley’s apprentice, Wright, was a relative of Bessler and made a drawing of Rowley’s working version of Bessler’s wheel or, since he was family, he had a copy Bessler gave him so he would know if Rowley found the secret. Wright then passed it down through the generations and the inventor’s father, Frank Kienow (Keno) saw it when he lived with the Wrights (descendants of Rowley’s apprentice) when he came to America.

Which version do you think is true? If you have another explanation, please share it.

As a refresher, here are posts from Doc about the Keno brothers family history:

“My dad talked of a PM machine he'd seen many years before that ran. The man who made this machine (Albert Peter Keno) was a close friend of my grandfather. The inventor had even hired him to run a couple of his farms. Dad at this time became acquainted with the old gent also. My uncle worked for him also. They all trusted one another 100% . I suppose thats how the info. got passed to me. The inventor and my grandfather were not above imbibing in some good sippin whisky so I suspect that the wheel and ancestry made a great topic.�

“My grandfather had taken a team of horses and wagon to town to attend an auction at a large hotel that had closed. On the way home as he passed the inventors home he saw him outside running a "buzz saw" making firewood. So he swung in and visited a bit. The wheel was inside a building and he had cut a hole in the siding to run a flat belt through to the saw (the PM machine was powering a sawblade cutting wood). Grandfather arrived home and told dad it would take the wood as fast as you want to feed it to the saw. I have been told by people who were there and actually witnessed its running. First off the inventors own two daughters. They were both young girls at the time when one prototype exploded, a wooden one that sent the weights through the woodshed walls. After that they refused to stay in the house if he was going to run it. This damage was also seen by my uncle Ralph although I don’t think he was there for the actual explosion. My uncle did see one runaway in person and said he ran for the door but the inventor did manage to get it stopped. The two surviving grandsons also witnessed it run.�

“Johann Bessler's original MT and his original homemade book of notes that everyone thinks that was destroyed. 30 years ago I had these two items in my hands. Written in German which I couldn't understand, nor did I understand all the engravings in hand bound ancient leather. The MT and notebook were in a small very old house that belonged to one of the inventors daughters. Also the house where the inventor passed away in 1950. This house was a time capsule as nothing was basically removed after his death. When I was in there with the daughter it looked like the inventor could have been there the previous day!�

“The original inventor was born in 1859 . Died in 1950 at age 91. I have been trying to do research into the family that built this thing. I always supposed the person who built it was his idea. Now it is clear to me that the idea was way before his time. I did delve into the family tree with the makers daughter and the name Bessler was mentioned, then speaking of Bessler who had changed his name (Orffyreus) and was considered "strange". Also talked of his doing that seance thing every night. Married a witch.�

“As told to me by the inventors daughter they came from France. I verified this from census records to somewhere between 1825-1840. When I inquired before that she said Prussia (the dominant state of the old German Empire). The direct family linage of this wheel will lead you to Johann Bessler’s daughter from his marriage to the so called "witch". John C. has stated that Johann Adam Crone married Bessler's daughter Catherine in Pommern Prussia after 1732. They must have had a daughter who married a Kienow.�

“Johann Gottfried Kienow Senior, dates unknown, married to Maria Neumann. Johann Senior’s mother was a Crone originally. They had a son Johann Gottfried born 3 August 1781, in Collin Pommern. He died 30 Sep. 1842. He married Euphrosyne Mittelstadt who was born 1 Jan. 1793, in Collin Pommern. They had several children together. His daughter Johanna Willhemina Kienow bore a son Frank in 1825. Later she married David Friedrich Mitzlaff on 30 June 1829. She has no other listed children. It was this son Frank who migrated to America as a youngster somewhere around 1840. I believe he was sponsered by the "Wright" family. He did reside with them for awhile after arriving with his girl friend. Then he changed the name spelling (to Keno). He was the father of the inventor of this wheel.�

“Johann knew that Gravesande had by chance stumbled onto the principle but that Gravesande didn't himself realize it. Fortunately for him the only one who did was John Rowley. Johann sent his brother Gottfried to England and arriving there he changed his name. He opened a shop next door to Rowley or he went to work for Rowley. He gained his confidence. That is the link between Rowley and Bessler. Rowley never caught on who he was actually talking to. He was the one person Johann feared had the smarts to bring it to be and he did. Nearing its final completion he had Rowleys apprentice, Wright, whack him to preserve his secret, as related to me many years ago by my father. That explains why no one ever found Rowley’s wheel. The Wrights were related to Johann thru his mother.�

“The old family name in Collin Pommern (Germany) was Kienow. After coming to the US the spelling was changed. Dad used to refer to him sometimes as ‘Keenie’. In that direct family chain I believe all info. has been lost, other than the two grandsons. There are two great grandsons (Leigh and Leslie Keno) younger than me who are known world wide, millionaires in they're own right. I see them all the time on tv. I ran into them a few years ago and inquired if they had any info on their great grandfather. Other than the empty name they had nothing. Did say they thought he was an "inventor of something" but knew nothing of what he had invented and I smiled and dropped the subject.�

I am currently on ancestory.com checking these family trees. Have any of you already done this? I know that John C. and Ralph have. Care to share what you found?
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Last edited by rocky on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:47 am, edited 19 times in total.
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"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
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Post by Grimer »

Is dimple on the chin a dominant gene, perhaps?

I'll google it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleft_chin

Ain't that search engine the bee's knees, just!
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rlortie »

I am currently on ancestory.com checking these family trees. Have any of you already done this? Care to share what you found?
Yes, I spent the better part of two years in my spare time tracking this down.

A lot of what you have posted is the same in general that I gave Doc, I found that I had discovered more than he then knew.

Some of what you have posted, I had already dug up in years past, The part that I got from the Grandson about the timing and place of the name change is in conflict.

I made a vow never to discuss this and/or reveal the current surnames. I not only made this promise to Doc but to the Grandson (the twins father)...

Keeping my vow means that I cannot be open to either assist you in correcting alleged errors or give you more insightful information. I will however fudge a little by adding the following;

It was not I who revealed the long kept secret of the family name, and by the way you have omitted the inventors first name. The time and place when the last name was changed is when the inventor started 1st grade school and the teacher could not pronounce the French name and changed to its present spelling, the parents being French picked up on it. (As informed by the Grandson)

I spent considerable time with the Grandson via internet and phone, we found we had a lot in common and we communicated as Pen-pals for some time. The communication dropped shortly after he and his family spent a respite at Queen Anne's, Bar Harbor Maine.

I was invited to attend a family luncheon of all Uncles, Aunts Nephews and Grandchildren for discussion regarding the wheel, unfortunately I could not afford the travel expense. Notes were taken in my behalf and were forwarded to me. I in turn passed them on to Doc, I now find that he has shared some of them without my knowledge.

Ralph
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rlortie »

Points I can discuss;

All present family members were in agreement that the inventor had in his possession a book written in German about Gravity wheels. He kept it by his bedside up to the time of his demise.

He died in a house owned by a sister who passed the book on to her son-in law. The last reference to this book placed it in the son-in law's garage. It has not to my knowledge been made available or found since.

The wheel was stored in an outbuilding on a small farm where it set for many years, recollections place it there since pr-world war II...

None of the family members showed interest in it, not even the ones Doc claims saw it running.

The Grandson told me that he pursued perpetual motion all his life and even into senility, he would play with tin cans in an attempt to build something.

Yes it was I who traced the possible link to Prussia where a birth (Johan Gottfried Kienow) was recorded that may or may not have been related (named) after Johan or his brother. The name on the Birth record showed up again as being married in Germany. I could not find any information on the name showing up in France.

For the record John Collins was aware and assisted in uncovering some of the data I found. But there is no way of confirming how much of it is factually related to Bessler.

Ralph
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rlortie »

why am I seeing two identical threads for this topic both in 'General Discussion"????
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by John Collins »

Yes, and I supplied the name of one of Bessler's daughter's husband and Doc thought that it matched the name he was looking for, but I wasn't 100 per cent convinced.

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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by daxwc »

Rocky Quote:
Nearing its final completion he had Rowleys apprentice, Wright, whack him to preserve his secret, as related to me many years ago by my father. That explains why no one ever found Rowley’s wheel.
Seems a strange tale; why would the Besslers’ resort to murder? How would they convince Wright of doing it? What was Wright to gain?




2. Rowley’s apprentice, Wright, was a relative of Bessler and made a drawing of Rowley’s working version of Bessler’s wheel or, since he was family, he had a copy Bessler gave him so he would know if Rowley found the secret. Wright then passed it down through the generations and the inventor’s father, Frank Kienow (Keno) saw it when he lived with the Wrights (descendants of Rowley’s apprentice) when he came to America.
Seems unlikely that Besser had relatives in London, they didn’t travel like people today.




“Johann knew that Gravesande had by chance stumbled onto the principle but that Gravesande didn't himself realize it. Fortunately for him the only one who did was John Rowley. Johann sent his brother Gottfried to England and arriving there he changed his name. He opened a shop next door to Rowley or he went to work for Rowley. He gained his confidence. That is the link between Rowley and Bessler. Rowley never caught on who he was actually talking to. He was the one person Johann feared had the smarts to bring it to be and he did. Nearing its final completion he had Rowleys apprentice, Wright, whack him to preserve his secret, as related to me many years ago by my father. That explains why no one ever found Rowley’s wheel. The Wrights were related to Johann thru his mother.�
Where did Bessler get all the money to do this? So Gravesande sees part of the inside and they become worried about Rowely??? Were they good friends and communicated?




In the 17-18C, most of the scientific instrument makers were based in or near Fleet Street. The street was numbered in c1760.
136 Fleet Street was the shop of several generations of mathematical instrument makers. John Rowley (1673-1728), of the orrery, began at The Globe under St. Dunstans Church in Fleet Street. He was Master of Mechanicks to the King from 1714. He was succeeded in 1718 by his student Thomas Wright at The Orrery & Globe. Wright became Mathematical Instrument Maker to the Prince of Wales, later King George II, in 1718 and extended Rowleys orrery to include the other planets: in 1733 he built the Grand Orrery now in the Science Museum. He lists James Stirlings Academy as a purchaser of one of his orreries, c1730. Wright was later at The Orrery, Water Lane (the only likely Water Lane I can find is in Stratford, which doesnt seem very likely - I suspect this is a now vanished street near Fleet Street). Wright was succeeded by Benjamin Cole (1695-1766) in 1748, at the Orrery, Two Doors above the Globe Tavern.
http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/bshm/zingaz/London3.html
First why would Wright kill his teacher? Thomas Wright succeeded Rowely in 1718, yet Rowley didn’t die till 1728; some ten years later. When or if Rowely seen Bessler’s wheel he was no longer Master of Mechanicks to the King and around 62 years old and without assistants.


Stewart:
Professor Willem Jacob 'sGravesande gave a through examination of Bessler's Wheel at Kassel on 16th August 1721.



JC Quote:
John Rowley was Master of Mechanics for King George 1 and a contemporary of John Harrison the inventor of the Marine chronometer. He was regarded as the finest mechanic in England and made clocks and watches and mathematical and scientific instruments for many, including Sir Isaac Newton.

Rowley visited Kassel and examined Bessler's wheel and was convinced that it was genuine. He didn't write to Bessler as far as I can tell but did some research among the libraries of London searching through books on PM. He became famous (or infamous) for declaring that Bessler's wheel was real and was probably responsible for the establishment of the fund to buy Bessler's wheel. Unfortunately the stock market nose-dived at that precise moment, otherwise we would probably not be here discussing the wheel but using it and its descendants!

There is no record of what Rowley actually saw, only circumstantial evidence that he was there and he saw the machine and spoke passionately about it.
Did Rowely ever publish how he thought the wheel worked? Bessler must have found out some how to send his brother or did he just fluke that Wright was working there? Why would the now Master of Mechanicks Thomas Wright kill him and not Bessler’s brother; Wright had more to lose.




JC Quote:
Now I think that your information is flawed Doc. Rowley died aged 60 in January 1728 and according to the records, Bessler?s brother didn?t go to England until after Bessler?s wife died and after his maid had left him, in 1729, so it seems highly unlikely that Gottfried ever met Rowley in England. Rowley had two shops, the first of which was attached to St Dunstan?s church in the Fleet Street. He moved to bigger premises at one time, but then, when he retired in 1721, he closed shop. He is buried in St. Dunstan?s Church close to his first shop.

I find it difficult to believe that Johann sent his brother to England to spy on Rowley and even if he had, the shop was gone and Rowley was dead. Rowley was a kindly man apparently - fond of good food and wine -and your comment about his girth is probably right. However he was no pushover and chased money owing, with great tenacity and I simple cannot accept that he would have, or even needed to, test out the skills of Gottfried. Remember that there was an excellent system of apprenticeship in those days where skills were learned at the side of the Master and all the rewards were in the learning and food and lodging. Why bother with testing the skills of a newly arrived German organ maker, who most certainly spoke little or no English.

Interestingly Rowley?s apprentice, Thomas Wright set up in business making orreries and scientific instruments, and his subsequent apprentices and their subsequent apprentices continued to a firm that exists to this day and makes electronic theodolites and rangefinders for the navy.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... wley#28941

The murder tale is a mess and probably didn’t happen as well as Wright being a family member.


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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rocky »

This is going to make a swell movie someday.

I agree with you Daxwc that Bessler would never murder anyone.

Bessler was VERY religious. So much so that he got the crowds mad at him for not exhibiting his machine on Sundays. Anyone that religious would never be a party to murder.

What gets me Ralph is that the Keno family admit that they had Bessler's original notes but they currently don't know what happened to it? That is hard to believe because the Keno brothers would know these documents would be worth millions if they showed the working PM machine and they would have hired private detectives to track it down. Since they have not done so, it would seem they know where it is and perhaps the oil companys and other energy companies paid them to hide it.

As John C. has pointed out many times, every home and business in the world would have a PM machine providing energy so we would no longer need power plants or transmission lines around the world. Added to this that the hundreds of old newspapers stories I have browsed online where the inventor said they have applied for a patent, not one person's name can be found. It sounds like they were all surpressed and removed from the database.

It will be interesting if someone on the forum finally does discover it and gets a real mechanical model running. I would bet we would not hear anymore posting from them.

Yes .... it will make a fine movie someday.
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"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by Fletcher »

RLortie wrote:From a NO-VOTER;

That which you call the 'keenie' wheel, aka 'The Heathen' as named by its last known owner, is rather obvious that it did exist. Having objective documentation that it ever ran does not exist. The statements of the son and grandsons of the inventor stating that it did not work does exist.

Having no communication with its last known owner, now throws its existence back in question?

Heir apparent family members claimed the inventor continued in his pursuit to discover a runner until the day he died. Up until the estate sale after his death the wheel was stored in a farm outbuilding dating back to pr-WWII in the 1930's. It is unverifiable to know how long previous to this memory, how long it sat there. Possible shortly after the date it was built. We do have statements that a 1927-1931 Model 'A' ford was stored in front of it for many of years.

No family member thought enough of the so called machine to bother taking from its storage during the sale of the property. Have you ever bothered to consider why?

Will you do this forum a favor? Either forget the design or prove any doubts to yourself by having a POP built to satisfy your obsession.

Ralph
Rocky .. Rowley died in 1728 at age 60, a year before Bessler's brother went to London & after his wife died & his maid left him, IIRC - search John Collins comments.

Also please read Ralph's comments made 6th Sept 2011 above - see the underlined parts in particular - much of Ralph's summary is at odds with what you believe is the case.
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by daxwc »

Rocky:
Bessler was VERY religious. So much so that he got the crowds mad at him for not exhibiting his machine on Sundays. Anyone that religious would never be a party to murder.
Rocky more people have been killed in the name of religion, than any other motive, sometimes by very religious people; for just one of many historical examples think of the crusades. In Bessler’s case the facts or motives just don’t line up.


Rocky:
What gets me Ralph is that the Keno family admit that they had Bessler's original notes but they currently don't know what happened to it?
There are so many variables and tall tales are just tall tales. Keno’s could just as easily know that their great grandfather had notes from Bessler’s blacksmith and never did have a running wheel or that it was a hoax. Why are not the Keno’s even a little bit interested?




Rocky:
That is hard to believe because the Keno brothers would know these documents would be worth millions if they showed the working PM machine and they would have hired private detectives to track it down.
Documents are easily lost and burnt; you are forgetting that first you have to believe. Belief that it was pure energy from gravity or otherwise it could be worth a lot less than millions. Would you pay millions for the “dunking bird� invention or the �radiometer�?

Also just because the Keno’s are on TV does not exactly mean they are rich enough to hire detectives to go through New York’s garbage pit. Since they are in the antique business they probably know where the documents are.




Rocky:
Since they have not done so, it would seem they know where it is and perhaps the oil companys and other energy companies paid them to hide it.
Yes, you didn’t get the flyer in the mail of all the oil companies looking for contributions? The oil companies couldn’t organize a rock fight in a gravel pit, never mind being secretive or stealthy about an industry wide threat. Maybe a countries intelligence service from a oil producing nation, but highly unlikely they are watching in an area deemed dead from the conservation of energy scientific data.

But maybe the Keno's are still working on building a wheel.
It is a very interesting story none the less Rocky and valuable information might still arise from it.
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Re: re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by Grimer »

rocky wrote:This is going to make a swell movie someday.
...

It will be interesting if someone on the forum finally does discover it and gets a real mechanical model running. I would bet we would not hear anymore posting from them.

...
Rest assured if my builder (Vina1) and I get a mechanical model running you will be among the first people to hear about it.

What better way could there be to spread such knowledge around the globe before it can be suppressed.

Since neither of us are interested in making money we don't have to worry about patents and stuff.
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rocky »

My wife recently retired and as a hobby is looking up her relatives on ancestory.com.
I got interested and started looking up my side of the family.

I think I will start a new quest. I have a long list of names from my perpetual motion old newspaper research where the article says the inventor has applied for a patent. But, none is found when you look for it.

I am going to try and locate their relatives using ancestory.com and ask them if they know about their grandfather or greatgrandfather. Was he a fraud? Did he really apply for a patent? What happen to his machine?

Using birth, death, and marriage certificates and US Census reports I should be able to track them down. With such a long list of names I should be successful with some.

I'll report later what I find.
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"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by rlortie »

What gets me Ralph is that the Keno family admit that they had Bessler's original notes but they currently don't know what happened to it?
In defense of the Keno family you do not have all your facts straight, the book was described as a hard back printed in German. They did not make any claims as to who the author was or the year it was published.

You must consider the time line. The twins remember seeing the book but they were not born until March 14, 1957 . How old do you believe they were when this transpired. I for example was 17 years old in 1957, I do not think I would find any German text book to be interesting, not when raised to pursuing antique treasures known to be of value. The father obviously old enough to comprehend its value stated that the ole swimming hole was a bigger attraction.

Doc claims that he held the book in his hands at one point but he could not remember or make out who wrote it.

The twins have published their own autobiography of when what and where. Preston, I, and possibly Mick received a copy courtesy from Doc.

http://www.aeispeakers.com/speakerbio.p ... kerID=1336
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_and_Leslie_Keno

I post this as it is public knowledge now that the family name has been released. I remind all here with respect and dignity that the keno family is not interested in getting inundated with requests regarding the machine that they threw away in 1959. Due to the popularity of the twins all mail is screened by a third family member including he fathers. All uncles and aunts have since past on.

To all of you who are following this thread, I remind you that Doc was a very good 'tale spinner'. Especially if it would motivate you to research his wheel that he himself had never completely assembled.

With each update he would receive, there would be more recollections in the reply.

I find this conversation somewhat similar to to a bunch of golden age boys rehashing history, with to many holes in it and irrelevant to finding the answer we all seek. As such, do not be surprised ir you find this to be my last entry this topic.

I will however continue to defend the family from unwanted inquiries. I feel guilty as it was my input to Doc that lead to him posting material edited to add his vivid imagination called recollections.

Ralph
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

Post by Timothy »

I agree with you Daxwc that Bessler would never murder anyone.

Bessler was VERY religious. So much so that he got the crowds mad at him for not exhibiting his machine on Sundays. Anyone that religious would never be a party to murder
Rocky more people have been killed in the name of religion, than any other motive, sometimes by very religious people; for just one of many historical examples think of the crusades.
Just How Many People Has Religion Killed?
Kirk Durston, National Director, New Scholars Society

A popular urban legend that I've often heard is that religion has killed more people than anything else, so the world would be a lot more peaceful place were it not for religion. The top three largest examples are thought to be the Crusades of the Middle Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, and the burning of witches. Scholars estimate that the Crusades of
the middle ages cost from 58,000 to 133,000 lives. The most realistic figure for the Spanish Inquisition puts the total killed from AD 1480 to AD 1808 at up to 31,912. Finally, records indicate that the number of witches killed may be over 30,000. Some argue that records don't tell everything and suggest that maybe even 100,000 were killed. These three events, totaling over 264,000 killed, are thought to be the largest atrocities perpetrated by one or another form of Christendom. As we shall shortly see, however, they pale into insignificance in comparison to the consequences of atheism.

Yes, people who claim to love God do kill, but nowhere near to the extent that the lack of religion does. According to University of Hawaii political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel, the total number killed in all of human history is estimated to be about 284,638,000. Of that number, 151,491,000 were killed during the past 100 years. The single largest killer in all of human history is, by far, atheistic Communism with a total of 110,000,000 … over 1/3 of all people ever killed! If we add to that number just two other regimes where religion of any sort was strongly discouraged, Nazi Germany and Nationalist China, the number rises to 141,160,000.

Almost 50% of all the killings in human history were committed in the past 100 years by regimes that either actively promoted atheism or strongly discouraged religion. When the murders of history are tallied up, it is very clear that atheism is the most dangerous philosophy ever embraced by humanity.
"Alexander III of Macedonia is known as Alexander the Great because he killed more people of more different kinds than any other man of his time." (Will Cuppy)
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daxwc
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re: The Keno Bessler Connection

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Thus, it is impossible to establish which conflicts were caused by “religion� and which conflicts were caused by “politics� or “culture� because such categories have no intrinsic meaning, but rather, are human inventions http://godevidence.com/2011/02/doesnt-r ... se-killing
Nobody really knows the numbers. When the Incas killed for sacrificial proposes, how many souls through their history were killed? Other cultures though out mankind?






Quote:
According to University of Hawaii political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel,...
Imagine a white Christian political scientist living under a democracy saying that. Bringing truth to the theory that the victors make history. Democratic propaganda is what he is really selling.







Rummel:
Almost 50% of all the killings in human history were committed in the past 100 years by regimes that either actively promoted atheism or strongly discouraged religion.
So notice he doesn’t say how many killings were religious societies, so I will lowball in at 21%






R.J. Rummel Quote:
But communists could not be wrong. After all, their knowledge was scientific, based on historical materialism, an understanding of the dialectical process in nature and human society, and a materialist (and thus realistic) view of nature. Marx has shown empirically where society has been and why, and he and his interpreters proved that it was destined for a communist end. No one could prevent this, but only stand in the way and delay it at the cost of more human misery. Those who disagreed with this worldview and even with some of the proper interpretations of Marx and Lenin were, without a scintilla of doubt, wrong. After all, did not Marx, Lenin, Stalin, or Mao say that. . . . In other words, communism was like a fanatical religion. It had its revealed text and chief interpreters. It had its priests and their ritualistic prose with all the answers. It had a heaven, and the proper behavior to reach it. It had its appeal to faith. And it had its crusade against nonbelievers. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COMMENTARY.HTM
So if “ Communism was like a fanatical religion�, than we are back at “more people have been killed in the name of religion, than any other motive�. Add the 30% communist killings to the other 21% religious killing and we are at 51% and I win with Rummels own numbers. 8p 8P




Say wasn’t Christ killed over religion.
Discussion over.

Yes, I am a super genius too 8P
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