My Project

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john
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My Project

Post by john »

This is something I may get aound to building one day.
Until then, it is something to mess around with.
It's actually a simple idea. A long lever can pump water up hill.
Then as the wheel rotates, another long leverr will pump the water allowing the wheel to rotate.
What might be a little different about this is that when the weight on the long lever falls downward, if it's tethered to another pump, it can pull it open. This would allow vacuum to help. If it worked right, then 2 or 3 dead weights could be lifting even more water than one weighted lever could pump.
I figured out by modifying the mechanics on a clock that 2 different points can be closed at the same time. This would allow for the end of one pump and the start of another being closed together. This would both pump the water and create a seal.
An example is if the hour and minute hand on a clock were both between the 1 and the 2. Then if they were rotated 90 degrees, they would be between the 4 and the 5.
All this means is that one pump end would need to be open more than the other one. This would also help them to work together. Otherwise they might hit each other and not work very well.
Of course, with a simple wheel, the weighted levers could land on the hub of the wheel instead of being tethered.
John
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clock mechanics1.jpg
111021-132631.jpg
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re: My Project

Post by AB Hammer »

Greetings John

I played with a similar idea a while back like several others here IMO. What you want to look at is the 3:00 O'clock to the 9:00 O'clock marks as if that is a line. Put an arm on as many in the wheel as you want but count how many weights are below the line and is there enough above the line to make it rotate. This you will find if you use 8 of the. There will be 5 below and 3 above. This is what kills most wheel designs.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"

So With out a dream, there is no vision.

Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos

Alan
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re: My Project

Post by john »

Hi AB,
With this design, the weights should always be in a state of equilibrium.
That is one of the tricks.
I bought some wood today to start building. I always thought using a small rotary tool was a bad idea. But now I think it's a good thing. It limits what I can do and with some of the detail that will be needed, it would show it's worth.

John
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re: My Project

Post by john »

@All,
I thought I would let everyone know I will be going "Old School" on
this build. What this means is it will most likely take into next year to get it built.
I am currently bidding on hand held wood working tools. I may even by a hand drill and bushings. If so, then the entire construction would be done without the aid of modern devices.
Guess there won't be much to discuss until I have a fair amount of the work done. I think all in all, I will be able to have a better go of it this way.


John
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Good show, John. Old tools are fun and one tends to forget that they actually work :-)

The old drills are really good wood, it's just a question of making sure they are sharp, or that you know how to sharpen the bits.
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re: My Project

Post by john »

Hi Nic,
You're right about what you've mentioned.
Myself, I always thought having the right "shop equipment" was what I needed.
Now I find I can most likely do what I've been wanting to do, have a better go of it and for pennies on the dollar as well.
I haven't sharpened drill bits before, but have found out that the blade on a plane also will need sharpening. So hopefully that will go smoothly. Have experience working in a machne shop and doing some hand work. Am hoping that will help me with this.
There is a plus to it that I do like. It will be much cleaner and quieter working this way. This means I can do it at home :-)

John
edited to add; Nic, thought I would show a pic of some of the mechanics I've been working on.
I saw where some people wondered about how much to tell. With me, doubt anyone would try this because of it's complexity.
With the drawing, I am working in a 1:1 scale. And by understanding how it works in this simple way, I can then warp or curve the boards/design to go into further detail. Basically, the longer lever I showed in the poor illustration would use another shorter lever to further increase the leverage acting on the pumps. In the end, the force acting on the pumps could be as high as 4:1 or more.
And this is in keeping with the most basic design elements.
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mechanics.jpg
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re: My Project

Post by john »

@All,
This is how the design outline goes from a flat perspective to a wheel.
Points A and B are the same points on successive curved pieces.
Points 1 and 2 are the fulcrum (1) and the point (2) that moves with the long lever. The point between 1 and B is where the short lever will act on the top of the lower curved piece. Point Bis where the short lever acts on the bottom of the upper curved piece. This allows 2 things to happen. The first is it pumps the fluid in that part of thewheel. The second things is that once it has pumped the fluid located there, it creates a seal which will prevent a back flow when the next pump operates.
This design uses a compound leveraging system. This allows the force of the long lever to be doubled while still having a minimal amount of motion.
The next step would be to do an outline with one more curved piece, This should allow for the final design.
By knowing where critical points need to be, the wheel almost designs itself.

John

edited to add; 2 detailed sections may be enough for a final design. This would allow for the placement and shape of the long (primary) lever.
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outline 1.1.jpg
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re: My Project

Post by john »

@All,
Have done some checking and to demonstrate what I believe to be the stork's bill Bessler mentioned I think I'll be able to use moldable plastic.
This means I'll only need to build one mold as both parts of the bill as with the stork, help to form the other in fit.
If all goes well, it could take a couple of weeks.

John
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re: My Project

Post by john »

@All,
While I was hoping to have a demonstration completed by this weekend. I have decided to take my time with it. There are a few different reasons.
One most likely being the lack of an engineering background by some people. After all, any idea is best to be tested on a basic level before attempting to advance the design and or concept.
As such, mechanical engineering does required math to be consider. This helps someone to understand the design parameters. And with the principles I will be testing, I will first build a basic wheel. By doing so, I will be able to modify the mechanics as they are better understood.
It has been my experience in working with steam driven generators that when a condenser is incorporated, that a lower steam pressure can be more efficient. This is because vacuum helps to draw the steam through the turbine. Simply put, when steam condenses, it creates a vacuum.
As such, the concept I will be working with will not use steam. However, by using vacuum, the load could possibly be doubled or tripled. This is a prospect that I find interesting. And all of this will happen with no weights being over or under balanced. Water is normally considered by volume and thus is not normally thought of as a weight.

John

p.s. I'll stick to my own little corner here :-)
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re: My Project

Post by rlortie »

Why do I feel a premonition that a sock puppet walks among us?
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Post by nicbordeaux »

If he's a sock puppet, at least he knows that water has a weight. That's a good enough starting point ;-)
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Post by john »

Nic,
What do all attempts at perpetual motion have in common ? I think it is they all use solid weights.
It's a known fact that when a weight shifts position, it will require more energy to accelerate it.
After all, when a weight makes a sudden change in it's position, it loses momentum.
With this design, the solid weights make no sudden shifts. One way to conserve momentum.
And another way to obtain "free energy" is to convert the potential of one mass to kinetic energy
in another. Or more simply stated, let the solid weights push off from the water. The water would be
factored f=ma, where a =0. That would not work, but by replacing a with 1, then f=m1.
As such, since the mass causing the over balance might move a little, it's average position and
velocity would be 0. That means it can't have force. But we know it does.
After all, one of the basic tenets of science is that energy can not be created nor destroyed. In this
instance, the potential that a suspended mass has would be converted into kinetic energy by allowing
leveraged weights to act in opposition. And in between, you have the point of the wheel that acts as
the fulcrum. It is this point where energy would be transferred from one body to the other.
Quite simple really if a person takes the time to consider it.

John
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Most attempts at PM use solids, but not all. I believe ralph has considerable experience with liquids. Considerable being an understatement. My attempts sometimes involve liquid dsplaced by immersion of mass which is travelling somewhere whatever happens short of a spanner in the works.

Good luck with your build.
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Post by john »

Thanks Nic.
One principle in the design is pumps working in series. I'm not sure if everyone has been around equipment like that.
But as wikipedia mentions in it's description of perpetual motion, by known ways it is not possible.
This is one of the reasons I am trying this. I have yet to see anything like it.
And could for fun, design it to have the weights (8) land on the side of the wheel in the direction it is rotating. after all, the weights will be tethered so they won't break their levers.
John
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re: My Project

Post by john »

@All,
It is interesting. My father was the manager of an industrial repair shop.
And my brother worked for him. I saw an article in the paper and it showed my brother working on a pump. It was a succession of pumps one stacked on top of the other. They worked together. I've heard that somewhere else, not sure where. You know, things working together.
As such, math has shown me a very neat trick. If 8 ounces (what I will be working with) drops a value of 1 distance, then it can lift another value of 8 ounces a value of 1.
To incorporate a series of 8 pumps, the 8 ounces dropping can lift another 8 ounces a value of .707, the vertical height of 1 at an angle of 45 degrees. Something that it seems everyone has missed. This alone allows for an extra value of about 40%.
Could be why I like math. It helps to point out over sights others have missed.
As such, I only know of fluids as being able to take advantage of this disparity.
John
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