Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

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Where should Doc’s cast iron PM machine (Buzzsaw) go?

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rocky
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Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by rocky »

It has been a year and a half (June 10, 2010) since docfeelsgood has posted on the forum. Since he does not answer private emails he may no longer be with us so I am asking the poll questions.

It is a short list of people in this world where we have physical evidence of their working perpetual motion machine. We have Bessler’s things found in his home after his death, the Museum of Appalachia in Norris, Tennessee has Asa Jackson’s perpetual motion wheel partially assembled on display, and we have detailed photos and drawings of docfeelsgood cast iron perpetual motion machine that belonged to his grandfather’s friend.

I personally believe that all three people had genuine working PM machines and that someday working replicas will be made of all their devices. I don’t know if doc has a will of where he wants his machine to go. I would like to see it on display beside Asa Jackson’s machine in Tennessee. I already talked to the museum’s curator and they would love to display it. I would be happy to pay all expenses for a freight company to pick it up and deliver it to the museum. Or …. would any of you like to do a road trip of picking up the Buzzsaw and personally delivering it to the museum? I live near him and will volunteer. I have visited the Tennessee museum and was really excited to see a PM machine right in front of me.

Don’t you think it would be more inspiring to have two alleged working PM machines on display in a museum side-by-side to moviate someone to try to get them working instead of it being locked away out of sight by a collector?

docfeelsgood real name is on a drawing he uploaded to the public forum:
docfeelsgood ≫ new thoughts ≫ sept2_001.gif 74 kb

There are those on this forum who had private correspondence with doc and most of us promised doc not to make public certain matters. If doc has passed on, does that release us from that promise?

---

For those of you new to the forum here are some more important quotes from doc about his PM machine:

“My dad talked of a machine he'd seen many years before that ran. The man who made this machine was a close friend of my grandfather. The inventor had even hired him to run a couple of his farms. Dad at this time became acquainted with the old gent also. My uncle worked for him also. They all trusted one another 100% . That’s how the info. got passed to me. The inventor and my grandfather were not above imbibing in some good sipping whisky so I suspect that the wheel and ancestry made a great topic. Dad told me that when you walked by the wheel you could tell at a glance if it was ready to run and timed right. It was some sort of geometric pattern.�

“My grandfather had taken a team of horses and wagon to town to attend an auction at a large hotel that had closed. On the way home as he passed the inventors home he saw him outside running a ‘buzz saw’ making firewood. So he swung in and visited a bit. The wheel was inside a building and he had cut a hole in the siding to run a flat belt through to the saw. Grandfather arrived home and told dad it would take the wood as fast as you want to feed it to the saw. These saws did have a large cast iron flywheel attached to the end of the saw shaft and a blade 30" or so in dia. The feed table was on rollers. Steadied the wood with your hands and pushed the table with your hip. Kind of dangerous but I liked running them. If he was having a runaway problem this resistance must have kept it under control at least in this instance. If he had it belted to other items before or after that I don’t know.�

“It was dad who described the lever system to me. He had seen it up close and personal with his own eyes. This, according to my father, was a real piss whistler to get right. The maker of this machine had ruined 2 castings before going to lighter levers. Dad said there were 2 or 3 bushel baskets of springs that he had experimented with under his workbench before getting the tension just right to return the levers. The timing for the levers was very critical. There again he had bent many. Enough to nearly fill a 5 gallon bucket. One day he dumped them out and counted them, around 250 or 300 bent levers. He told dad that once you got that set right you NEVER EVER moved it again!!�

“The two small objects you see are balance weights. Dad told me that once you have filed all the teeth into the wheel it will be out of balance, then you must bring it back into static balance. The same as the inner red wheel, it is not visible in the pictures but hammered into position on top of two spokes is a wide strip of sheet lead. Each wheel must be balanced individually.�

“Now let’s get to the pendulum which dad described ‘looked like a blacksmith hammer’, ‘and helped the weight fly faster’. He said it slapped the frame leg. This gave the weight dropping from outer to inner a horizontal type movement so it didn't have as much chance to get crunched midway in transfer between the gullets.�

“What dad told me as to his last contact with the inventor was in the late 1920s. The inventor told him he had given up on trying to find a governor for it and was trying to find a way to silence the clunk of weights transferring. Dad said the wheels have to fight each other for equilibrium which they can never achieve.�

“The original inventor was born in 1859 . Died in 1950 at age 91. He was an old family friend of my father and grandfather. The old family name in Collin Pommern [Collin, Germany, near city of Pommern] was Kienow. After coming to the US the spelling was changed and I won’t pass that out. Dad used to refer to him sometimes as ‘Keenie’. To me this a genuine Bessler descent wheel and the two surviving grandsons also witnessed it run. In that direct family chain I believe all info. has been lost, other than the two grandsons. There are two great grandsons younger than me who are known worldwide, millionaires in their own right. I see them all the time on TV. I ran into them a few years ago and inquired if they had any info on their great grandfather. Other than the empty name they had nothing. Did say they thought he was an "inventor or something" but knew nothing of what he had invented and I smiled and dropped the subject.�

“I'm talking about Johann Besslers original MT and his original homemade book of notes that everyone thinks that was destroyed! 30 years ago I had these two items in my hands. Written in German which I couldn't understand. Nor did I understand all the engravings. Hand bound leather ancient.�

“There was mentioning the rising and falling of one of the support legs. I do remember a conversation with dad when he told me the secret of ‘PM’. Although I no longer retain it I'm pretty sure that this imbalance I speak of and its causing it to hunt for equilibrium which it can never achieve was the ‘secret’. He said ‘It ran with the motion of a horse’s head’. Now that coincides with someone saying that the frame leg was lifting a whisker from the floor at one of Johanns demonstrations. It Has to be out of balance a whisker!!!�

“According to my uncle who worked for him while he was perfecting this wheel said he had this thing cast about 1909. It was the end result of numerous models made of wood with iron weights. According to my uncle it did run. When I got this thing it was as you see in the pics. It had 12 weights in it. My uncle years ago had said as he remembered, it was 7 going down and 1 being raised. My uncle told me that all the teeth in both those wheels were also all home made with a hacksaw and files.�

“I have been told by people who were there and actually witnessed its running. First off the inventors own two daughters. They were both young girls at the time when one prototype exploded, a wooden one that sent the weights through the woodshed walls. After that they refused to stay in the house if he was going to run it. This damage was also seen by my uncle Ralph although I don’t think he was there for the actual explosion. My uncle did see one runaway in person and said he ran for the door but the inventor did manage to get it stopped.�
- Rocky (Robert)
"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by justsomeone »

I think it should go into purgatory till we discover how it worked. ;)
. I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills.
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by FunWithGravity2 »

put it back in the barn where they found it.
Si mobile in circumferentia circuli feratur ea celeritate, quam acquirit cadendo ex
altitudine, quae sit quartae parti diameter aequalis ; habebit vim centrifugam suae
gravitati aequalem.
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by Unbalanced »

I am currently on a road trip and coincidentally about four-hours away from Doc's place. I used to have his phn# but have lost it. PM me if you have it... You who has it.

A properly funded and open collaboration to make it a runner once again would warrant it's rightful place in the Smithsonian or perhaps the farm equipment museum if it turns out to be an early PTO clutch.
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by path_finder »

Dear rocky,
I feel your idea as excellent.
If there are no operations (experiment, measurement, chemical analysis, etc) to do anymore, the relocation in a museum will be a pertinent action, allowing perhaps one day to complete it with the missing parts.
I suspect the Smithsonians to restrict the information sometime.
Aside the Asa Jackson wheel would the best choice.
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
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Post by Grimer »

Obviously the Smithsonian once it has been shown to work. Till then the the Tennessee museum.
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by rlortie »

Curtis, Rocky,

Running a little late as Gail is in the hospital.


http://www.tributes.com/show/David-W.-Hoke-88999887

Linda Hoke's phone number is 928-785-4311

Ralph
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by rlortie »

David 'Doc' Hoke verbally expressed his desire to see the 'Heathen' used as a company insignia and mounted on a pedestal of the home office of who ever is the first to invent and commercialize an energy producing machine.

Although he would have liked it to be of the 'Heathen' design, any design meeting the requirements would receive the wheel.

NO! I do not have any written or legal documents supporting this.

Ralph
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by rlortie »

Every one now knows all that I promised to keep confidential regarding the heirs of Albert Keno and his alleged running machine identified by David Hoke as the Heathen.

Below is a brief uncorrelated transcript of what I received from Albert Keno's Grandson.

Story of A. Keno
And his
Wonderful wheel
As told by his Grandson
Ron Keno

A composite of letters received from the grandson of the original inventor/owner of
Doc’s wheel, nicknamed the “Heathen’

Edited for brevity and all names and related locations have been omitted in respect for the families privacy.


Hello Ralph,

My son M______ forwarded your e-mail to me, concerning my Grandfathers'
“Perpetual Motion� machine...It seems this is the very same creation that
He had.

I remember seeing this machine on the ground up against the inside back
Wall of a small "garage" type frame building on his old farm property...My
Aunt, Marie [_____} model "A" Ford Coupe was stored almost up against it for many years. The building was a small one story, one stall building on my Grandfathers farm near [_____]. I was about 14 years old at the time.
That would have been about 1944...It was probably still there a few years later when the property was sold to a neighbor named [___________] now deceased...What ever happened to it ..I never knew.

The general story that came down through the family was that he felt he could successfully make a perpetual motion machine in the classic sense. He seemed to have been obsessed with this goal...Perhaps from an early age...I do not know. I was led to understand that he was secretive about it. To the point where he had iron castings made in different foundries to safe guard his ideas...

Toward the end of his life he lived to be about 97, he still worked with various size tin grocery cans with the ends cut out, in different configurations. At that time, in my later teens, it was clear and logical to me, that he was visualizing his thoughts on the possibilities of making a machine that would produce energy with no physical input of energy, and at that time it involved cylinders running within and without other cylinders in close company.

According to my father, [___ ____], the youngest of three sons, along with two Daughters, [_____[ [______] and [____] [ ______ ], Grandpa [____] made an earlier machine early in his life...Dad's two brothers, were [_____] and [_____].

I don't believe your assumptions in relationship to my Grandfather and earlier persons as mentioned in your e-mail and working on this motion theory, are correct...The name [____] is an Americanized version of the French name “[_____]� Granddads Father was [______] [_____] and his wife’s' maiden name was “[____]�.or a spelling close to that... They came from France sometime before the Civil War. Landing in New Orleans...then up to Chicago...then East to the [__________] where he was successful as a farmer...One son was born,
[_____ ____ ____] . He went to a one room school where , not unusual for the time, the male teacher taught him to spell his name as Keno...as the French pronunciation of [______] sounded similar...Not really a strange thing to happen back then...He was married in 1888...He was in the Milk and Cheese business,. Bought and sold hay, straw, dealt in cattle and bought and sold small farms all in this area outside of [_______] [ very Central New York State .He made and lost a small fortune...One mistake was the Teapot Dome Scandal...He never owned an automobile or tractor again, not unusual for the time.

Replying to your e-mail has been an enjoyable time. After you have digested what little I've given you...perhaps you will have some further questions or additions from what you have learned from other sources...

Please do not hesitate to e-mail us with further developments and/or details...All MOST interesting to all of us!

Sincerely,
Ron Keno


Hello Ralph...
A bit more on the machine, I just had a word with one of my cousins... [_______ ______], his mom was my Aunt [_____ ______] Maiden name, [____ ____] [one of Grandpas' 2 daughters]...[______] is about 8 yrs' older than I am, a WW 2 Combat Vet. He remembers seeing the machine run! Out there on the farm, before he went off to war. He said it clattered loudly and was of the configuration that ... weights went up and transferred into a second, or inner wheel that apparently descended...I suppose Albert Peter Keno in general. Tried to arrange the movement so that there was more weight coming down with gravity than was traveling upwards against gravity ...and beating out friction hopefully as well...
[My words] He went on to say that, as mentioned earlier. [____ __] could not make it produce any practical work... [____] did feel that it would keep running but for how long or indefinitely, he did not elaborate... I have some other cousins that are all older than I am, they might shed more light on all this...

I am guessing you are acquainted with others of the same interest, [Perpetual Motion.]. And can see how very interesting and challenging this can be for all...
I enjoy this mystery of the past, and trust we can help...

Sincerely, Ron Keno

PS. One of my sons, [______] at [______], told me today that as a very young child, he seems to remember seeing drawings, in the home where I grew up...that his Great Grandfather Albert Keno made of his machine...I shall look in old trunks I have from that house. Can you send a broadside picture of what you have?

HELLO RALPH...
RECEIVED YOUR RECENT MAIL...THE 4 PICTURE ATTACHMENT DID NOT COME THROUGH. ALTHOUGH THE PREVIOUS SINGLE IMAGE SHOWING THE MACHINE AT AN ANGLE DID ...PERHAPS A SIMPLE ATTACH TO YOUR E-MAIL TO ME WILL DO IT...OR IS THAT WHAT YOU HAVE USED? I ATTACH FROM A 3 1/2 FLOPPY WITH SUCCESS...PICS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT IN ANY CASE.

IV'E TALKED WITH 2 OLDER COUSINS AND THEY AND I ARE MEETING THIS TUES. AM FOR BREAKFAST AND CHAT TO DISCUSS ALL ...AND SEE WHAT CAN BE REMEMBERED...I'LL MAKE NOTES...IN THE MEANTIME, I WILL BE DELIVERING COPIES OF YOUR E-MAILS TO THEM AS A PRIMER.

I WANT YOU TO KNOW..ALBERTS' TRANSITION FROM WEIGHT TRANSFER CONCEPT TO, [FOR MY IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES] HIS INTER WORKING CYLINDER CONCEPT WAS LATE IN HIS LIFE.

TONIGHT MY YOUNGEST COUSIN TOLD ME THAT HIS MOTHER, MY AUNT, [_______] [ [_______ ] , WITNESSED THE MACHINE RUNNING WHEN A GIRL AND THE FAMILY WAS LIVING IN [______, _._ AT THE TIME...AND THAT IT SHOOK THE BUILDING.
AS I TOLD YOU, .MY FATHER TOLD ME THE SAME...PERHAPS THE LACK OF A GOVERNER WOULD HAVE BEEN A FACTOR AS YOU SUGGESTED. FOR SURE ...WHAT HE WAS WORKING TOWARD IS WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW!
[______}

GOOD MORNING RALPH...
HAVE TO LEAVE FOR THE DAY SOON, SO WILL GIVE YOU A BIT OF AN UPDATE QUICKLY... AS YOU CAN IMAGINE AND I'M SURE ACCEPT, THERE ARE SOME HOLES HERE N' THERE IN YOUR INFO ...WHAT I'LL DO IS GIVE YOU A FEW BRIEF CORRECTIONS..AS BEST.

[The inventor} HAD 3 SONS AND 2 DAUGHTERS
THE TWO OLDER SONS, [______] AND [_____], LEFT HOME FOR OUT WEST [WASHINGTON STATE] JUST PRIOR TO WW1...ONE NEVER RETURNED TO THE EAST AND THE OTHER CAME TO VISIT ONCE OR TWICE IN THE THIRTIES...ONE NEVER MARRIED AND THE OTHER MARRIED, HAD CHILDREN AND ALL HAVE PROSPERED WONDERFULLY...THE YOUNGEST SON, [_____], MY FATHER REMAINED HERE IN THE EAST...I AM [____] ONLY CHILD, [_____]..

MY AUNT [_______] [______] ...HAD 4 SONS AND 1 DAUGHTER, [__] IS THE OLDEST, THEN [_____}, THEN [____] ...{_____} DAUGHTER AND ONE SON, ARE DECEASED.

WHEN [_____] PASSED AWAY YEARS AGO..[_____] CLOSED HER ESTATE BY AN "ONSITE" AUCTION, AS ADMINISTRATOR.... HE IS NOT INVOLVED IN ANTIQUES, NOR IS HE A DEALER...[_____ ______] AN ANTIQUE DEALER LIVING STILL NEAR US AND A FRIEND OF ALL OF US...BOUGHT SOME OF THE ARTIFACTS THAT DAY...ALONG WITH MANY OTHERS WHO ATTENDED THE AUCTION..I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS ANY INFO. AS TO JUST WHAT [_____] OR ANYONE ELSE PURCHASED THAT DAY...THIS WAS MANY YEARS AGO...
YES, [___] IS ONE OF COUSINS [____]’S ' DAUGHTERS AND IS AN {_____].

ALL FOR NOW AND WILL KEEP IN TOUCH
Ron

HI RALPH,

I APPRECIATE YOUR MENTION OF SENSITIVITY TO FAMILY HISTORY AND MATTERS... I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS PARTICULARLY CONCERNED. I DIDN'T WANT YOU TO HAVE NAMES MIXED WITH WRONG ERAS ETC. IT COULD HINDER YOUR SEARCH. IN ANY EVENT, I SHOULD HAVE SOME DEFINITIVE INFORMATION AFTER OUR PLANNED BREAKFAST ...I'LL CHECK OUT THE [____] / [_____] LEAD A BIT...PROVIDING THE RIGHT MOMENT COMES UP. FOR SOME REASON THE PICTURES STILL DO NOT ARRIVE.

RALPH!

PICTURES CAME THROUGH PERFECTLY! SUCCESS

CAN YOU SEND ME NOW THE OTHERS I MISSED..I WANT TO SHOW THEM TUES. ...
IT WILL JOG MEMORIES..AND CREATE A LOT OF INTEREST TO HELP SOLVE THE MYSTERY. WISH YOU COULD JOIN US!

Ron


Additional by Ralph Lortie:

Due to a power surge which fried my computer even though surge protected, caused a loss of farther collected communications contained in this folder. I will have to proceed from this point on recall!

The a fore mentioned family breakfast was held to discuss and compare notes of what was seen and or recalled. One aunt swears she and a girl friend saw it running and a cousin seems to recall that the two wheels were counter rotating. A total of three individuals claim they saw it in operation. Said to be very noisy with heavy vibration. Another said that it did not seem to produce much power. It was also stated that a number of wooden test wheels were constructed previous to the cast/forged model now owned by Doc. One of these test models allegedly over run with acceleration that it flew apart putting a weight through the single board siding of the shed he was working in. They remember him using a timber levered against the axle to slow it down and stop it.

Third party input claimed that the buyer of the property found a sealed off portion in the loft of the building, containing wooden parts and pieces of earlier test models. The disassembled wheel was eventually moved from the building and ended up leaning against an apple tree where Doc found it.

When the question of the German books and notes collection was once again addressed, all communication ceased. Best that can be concluded is that the inventors sister gave the material to here son-in-law. He not being the apparent heir could have or would possibly cause a family feud if confronted. The Grandson did not wish to push the issue. The Aunt’s son-in-law has also been directly contacted and has ignored our pleas for information regarding them.

Acknowledgement for this draft is shared by the inventor’s family and John Collins who assisted in the attempt to trace family genealogy and heritage.

I did find unsubstantiated lead that a grandson to Johann or his brother Gottfried was born in Prussia, married in Germany and migrated to France.

A coincidence occurred here in Oregon. As previously stated the inventor had two brothers that migrated to Washington State. Approximately four months ago I was told of a wheel of similar design sitting in a farm field North West of Walla Walla Washington. The informing party could not remember exactly where he saw it as it had been many years ago. The party that showed it to him has long deceased.

Don’t you love these dead ends?

Ralph Lortie
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by daxwc »

Ralph, I was wondering your personal opinion on Doc's wheel. Is it some kind of torque converter or other farm machine or do you think it really was supposed to be an attempt at Perpetual motion? Is there not a chance the story and the wheel are unrelated?
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by rlortie »

Dax,

Weighing the facts that Albert was indeed interested in gravity wheels per-say, indicates that the wheel was intended for that reason. Yet it sat for decades without any interest while Albert pursued other designs.

I have researched old time tractors of the same era and or vintage and have found some pictures and even videos of machines with somewhat similar size/shaped fly wheels. I leave the words or phrase 'torque convertor' open for discretion. I would think the term 'centrifugal clutch' would be more appropriate.

After My first build which was an exact duplicate in size, replicated via actual tracings and dimensions, I passed this data on to Preston who also built a full size model. Considerable time was spent machining the twelve weights to exact size from cast iron, not to mention the number of carbide bits I went through.

Between the two of us we attempted many configurations of chain and sprocket ratios, enough to fill three pages printed in Excel app.

I have this spreadsheet, but where as Preston is the one who composed it, I consider it his property and do not have permission to post it here.

As for my personal opinion, I do believe that the story and the wheel are related. As for it ever running without outside assistance, I have my doubts. I refuse to commit myself to anything quotable or stated as fact!

Ralph
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by daxwc »

Child witnesses to a mechanical application inside a device are not exactly their forte at that age. Yet the story is appealing, if not all that compelling.
What goes around, comes around.
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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by murilo »


# BORN: July 17, 1941
# DIED: June 26, 2010


He was one of us and I'm sorry to know he's passed! Really!
He was born and passed as a LEO guy!


Is there a way to see DOC's referred matter or photos?

Thanks!
Best!
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Post by DrWhat »

Thanks for the info Ralph.

Are there photos of what doc looked like?

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re: Should Doc’s Buzzsaw PM machine go to a museum?

Post by nicbordeaux »

Irrespective of whether the machine worked or not, it has enormous value (not necessarily financial, mnd you) as an antique with history, a story of the involvement of at least two people, lifelong. It is testimony to human nature and hope.

The small device I have fitted to a bike and which a guy spent a lifetime inventing and protecting is invaluable to me. It's a piece of machinery with a soul.

Whether it goes public musueum or private, it must be saved. Just think about the past ten or whatever years and the number of people throughout the world who have dreamed of it, of making it work ;-)
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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