Tinkerer say wheel works.

a. the intentional perversion of truth; b. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting

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jim_mich
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Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by jim_mich »

I have communicated with a tinkerer who says he has a working wheel. He lives in a different country than I do. I signed a non-disclosure agreement so I'm limited as to what I can disclose.

He told me how his wheel is constructed. I ran it thru wm2d which showed a wheel that does not keel. In other words it would continue to spin until friction slowed it down. He says it works, that it speeds up when released. Maybe wm2d has something in its internal programming that checks to make sure it obeys conservation of energy? So I programmed a simulation in Visual Basic. Still no self running. But I'm just using formulas to see if it balances. I'm not figuring inertia. This tinkerer emailed me pictures and short videos of it running and of it self starting. But the videos aren't long enough (about 12 seconds) to tell if the wheel really would turn perpetually. But they show that he really has built a wheel. And they show very clearly how the wheel operates.

He tells me he has never let it run more than just a VERY short time, that he is afraid it will speed up and destroy itself. He has put a considerable amount of time into developing his wheel and does not want it damaged. His wheel is hand built so it is not very sturdy and could easily damage itself. Is he deluding himself into thinking it would keep turning if he didn't stop it? Or has he really made a self turning Bessler type wheel? What gets me is that his basic wheel concept has been discussed here before and a number of us said we thought it would not work. Is there something that we don't see that makes this type of wheel work?

I have decided the only way I will know if his wheel really works is to build one myself. So I've started making drawings and sketches. It looks like I can make a smaller well built model for about $150 (US dollars) of materials and about 40 to 60 hours of my labor making parts in my basement workshop. It may take me a month or two of my spare time. Hopefully I can prove if his wheel really works.

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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by MrTim »

About the only questions I have (if you are allowed to answer them) are:
1) how many weights does it use?
2) Total number of moving parts within the wheel?
3) Dimensions: Diameter and thickness?
4) Any springs in it?
That's about all I need to know. ;)
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Jonathan »

Rather than answering specific questions, how about answering all questions you can think of that you are allowed to answer?
As usual I'll build one as fast and best as I can, if I'm told how. Does he visit this forum?
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Trev »

Well that looks like a monument to friction - throw away that guide and use a ramp.
Jonathan, 999 posts! better hope there's no millenium bug in the forum :)

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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by ovyyus »

Even if friction is reduced to zero all you will have is a flywheel. Removing friction will not add excess energy to an already passive system.
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Michael »

You really need to build it to see if it will work...? You have the video and the plans, should be easy to figure out if it is legit or not.

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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Jonathan »

That's what he said, that he has the plans and did the math on them, and the math said it didn't work. But the videos show it does work, for at least a short time. The building of a quality model determines whether the tinkerer does something to 'wind it up' (without knowing it) before each short run, or if it is the math that is wrong.
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Michael »

You don't need massive calculations to see if something is legitimate or not Jonathan. Especially if you have a video. it should be self evident. If not then something is fishy, and you can take that as a mathematical certitude.

What does this mean?
>The building of a quality model determines whether the tinkerer does something to 'wind it up' (without knowing it) before each short run, or if it is the math that is wrong.

Are you implying the builder wouldn't know if he has wound the device up or not? If so...are you really serious? I wouldn't give him that benifit.

Also I know the person jim speaks of, and he changes his story form time to time. There is a well known someone on another board who supplied me with all the details, as well as have a few other people.

Trev., you know what I'm talking about.

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Mike
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by jim_mich »

Micheal, Micheal, although the wheel concept is simple the calculations are not so simple. The videos are too short to tell much. The longest is just a tad over one revolution. None show a full view of the wheel when turning. It is possible that it really works. Or the tinkerer may be a fraud? If you are taught all your life that airplanes are imposible and you are given formulas proving airplanes can't fly, and then some tinkerer comes along with a model airplane and states it does fly, what would YOU do? I try to keep an open mind.

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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Jonathan »

Not implying, that is what I said. As Jim said, the videos are short, so it wouldn't take much energy for short runs. So maybe the tinkerer does something which invests that energy, but it is such a little amount in the first place that he doesn't notice he is doing it. This isn't likely, but it's one of many possibilities.
Like that Bourke engine for example. If the website (link posted somewhere around here not long ago) can be trusted, then it was the simple mistake of measuring torque and angular velocity on different output shafts, that they were assuming had the same properties, that gave them the incorrect power figures.
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Michael »

Jim, first of all it's Michael.



>It is possible that it really works. Or the tinkerer may be a fraud?

Doesn't this point towards the latter?

>>Micheal, Micheal, ... The videos are too short to tell much. The longest is just a tad over one revolution. None show a full view of the wheel when turning.

I have this rather large animal see, and I'm going to put it behind this here curtain for a few seconds, then I'm going to take the curtain away. Viola the animal disappeared. I say I did it by magic. Do you believe me? If your someone who doesn't excercise reason you might not even notice the missing values. Such as hidden behind curtain etc. Now I ask again, where did it go? Did it disappear in thin air, or did it go up my sleeve, or through a trap door, or behind a hidden wall?

I'm not addressing that directly to you Jim, I'm just making a rather sassy and blunt point. If not much is being shown,...then why. K.I.S.S. If it's too good to be true, then it probably is. Even a full revolution of video is more than enough to figure if it is legit or not, unless there are hidden values. If there are hidden values how can you make a copy?

>what would YOU do

I'd figure it out by letting the tinkerer expose his position by asking the right questions. What does he really want? What is he willing to show. Does he want my help? Why? With what? No matter the circumstance if he is wanting something from me I would insist that he make the unclear clear. How does the machine work. I need a better video, this ones too blury, etc.

I've also given you some information on said person in question Jim. Do you want more?

Reg.

Mike
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Trev »

Hi Michael, I guessed that was what was being discussed. That design isnt new, I know I've seen it somewhere before.

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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by Jonathan »

This is where you've seen it:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225
though specifically here:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/5832/perpet2.htm
That design alone doesn't work, I have no idea how the tinkerer's seems to despite it.
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re: Tinkerer say wheel works.

Post by epistemologicide »

jim based on the evidence given to you it is not subject to full disclosure and working parameters thus far.

a non disclosure is a sure way to get you sucked in, i signed two, one for tommy K and one for another, that never showed me any real device.

they are redundent now.

point is they cost me 80$ a pop, and now i dont sign them any more if you have a device and intend on being serious about it, you better not ask me to look at it for panacea, with a non disclosure cause i wont accept it and am not interested.

so far the plans etc of designs have been given to me with out such questionable parameters have been done so for free, and i have put them to the highest application possible for FREE.

free energy=free
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