Energy law changes?

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Do you think this is a fraud if gravity is a input?

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Trevor Lyn Whatford
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Energy law changes?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that no intended "perpetual motion machine" can perpetually deliver energy to its surroundings.[2] Any delivery of energy by such a device would result in delivery of mass also, and the machine would lose mass continually until it eventually disappeared.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy


This must be a fraud! as the moon is still there and the tides still keep rolling in, so it has been time tested that the above is not true when Gravity is a input!

Help needed! I do not think I Have seen this before and may be a new idea, is it? and if it is who responsible for it?

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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Tarsier79 »

Trevor, I honestly believe you cannot gain more from gravity than you put in. Gravity can provide an efficient environment in which you can oeprate, and measure energy just by measuring static height (when done correctly with a suitable mechanism.)

The sun adds energy to the earth all the time, and this energy is used various ways to create weather, waves, etc. Our orbit around the sun, and the moons orbit around us is not perfect, and is not perfectly maintained. The gravity does not add any energy to the orbit, or the combined system.
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Kaine,

A pull on a object is doing work is it not? if the sun was not there would our planet keep its same orbit? no it would not! so there must be potentail energy converted to kinetic energy that is keeping us in orbit.

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Post by Tarsier79 »

Gravity doen't add energy to our orbit. Gravity maintains the orbit, much like twirling a ball on the end of a string does. An addition to the KE of the planet would see our PE compared to the sun increase. A decrease in KE would see our orbit decay. Where do you think there is energy in addition to this?
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Kaine,
How I see it! To sustain a motive force would require a input, Potential Energy to kinetic energy, a pull must be work, the Earth is towing the moon “so to speak� and energy is required to do this, mass times distance travelled! Gravity is a atom based force, “more atoms more force� the atoms do not shrink or the earth would be smaller, so the function of gravity does not reduce the mass even when the force is converted, it is still there it has not disappeared and neither has its mass, thus my complaint on this thread!

Gravity is a Perpetual Force!

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Tarsier79
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Post by Tarsier79 »

Moving objects have inertia. IE. Without friction, they would go forever. The physics you are attempting to argue with, is wether you can extract energy with gravity with some sort of gain( to power a wheel). Up to date there is no concrete evidence of this being possible. The earth, moon and planets orbit do not show energy gain.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Tarisier, you are forgetting the Bessler wheel and all the guys on this forum who have devices they won't talk about because of patent isues, MIB, and alien abduction.
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Post by Tarsier79 »

Its alright Nic. Paranoia does not equal a working wheel. There are no working wheels I am aware of here.

It is possible Bessler found that thing, but it is also possible Bessler did not find a way to evade or overcome energy laws, and used a viable power source for his wheel.

Trevors arguement is in regards to ocean movements, earths rotation, earths orbit, the moons orbit, and other planets orbits.

Trevor, consider the earths movement around the sun along 2 axis. gravity accelerates us perpendicular to our direction of travel. So if we are travelling exactly along the x axis, gravity accelerates us into the z axis, and we lose the energy in the x axis till our speed along this axis is 0. At this time, our speed along the z axis is at maximum. Yes, we have been accelerated to this speed, but our speed, and therefore our Kinetic plus potential energy remain unchanged.

A bit simplistic, but there you go.
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Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Kaine,
I think you have missed my point and have taken me out of text, Believe it or not I can tell the time and do have a calendar!

Friction less space is great for straight line travel, if you want a Orbit though you are going to need a force, not just any force, a constant attraction force,� A Perpetual Force� one that is as old as the planets in Orbit, maybe from the planets perpetual mass, but that will not be enough you will need a force that comes from mass but does not reduce the mass!

The planets have been in a perpetual state of motion since they where created.

Here is Kaines energy laws thinking in short,
Gravity does no work on the planets because they are in there balanced positions, and there is no Kinetic gained from gravity!

This is my thinking, although the Planets orbiting states are in balance “gravity is still doing work to keep them there� or there orbits would not be sustained, and this gravity input is converted into enough kinetic energy to keep the planets at a steady speed and orbit, if it did not then the planets would have crashed into the sun billions of years ago!

I like to think for my self, I am not happy with some aspects of the energy laws, and some I agree with, like you cannot create energy it can only be converted, so please do not tell me the planets perpetual motion do this on there own, that would be a straight line so a force is needed.

Planetary movement has been perpetual to date, thus Gravity must be a perpetual force.

A force acting on a body coursing a body’s sustained motion is PE converted into KE or am I wrong?

I cannot see how the use of Gravity can deplete the Mass of its source, is my main arguments on this thread and gave planetary movement as a example!

Friction less space not so sure there is such a thing? Looking at the moon it seems it is full of creators not much friction there then? not like a little wear on a bearings, big creators you can see with the naked eye!

Force times distance travelled! bet you did not know there was going to be a eclipse then!
Regards Trevor
Edit, do not tell me mother Earth is lazy and slack when she is working hard to keep a balance!
Edit, spelling, + removed slow down.
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by ovyyus »

Trevor Lyn Whatford wrote:This is my thinking... “gravity is still doing work to keep them there� or there orbits would not be sustained...
Trevor, do you also believe the spring loaded peg holding your socks on the clothesline is doing perpetual work?
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Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Ovyyus,

Its function as a spring no it is not!

Its function as part of the Earth mass yes it is!

Can you please answer these questions,
1 . Is the earth in a perpetual state of motion? Yes it is, or no it is not.

2 . Does gravity forces Dictate the Earths path? Yes or no.
Edit,
3 . Do centrifugal forces exist in space? Yes or no.

4 . If so what keeps them in check?

Regards Trevor
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi All,

There has to be a pull on the Earth away from the Sun to keep a steady Orbit, so I believe centrifugal forces must be a factor! If there are centrifugal forces on the earth then Gravity is doing work against these forces.
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Tarsier79 »

Can you please answer these questions,
1 . Is the earth in a perpetual state of motion? Yes it is, or no it is not.


The earth does have mass and therefor inertia, which causes it to continue in its path.

Just as when you roll a marble across a level floor, it will continue forever unless friction or an object stops it.

Again, the point is the amount of energy that is present in the system. Besslers device rotated itself, and did external work. If you performed work from the rotation of the earth, the earth would slow down. If you performed work from the orbit of the earth, we would crash into the sun, eventually.
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi all,

If a body (the Earth) wants to fly off in a straight line and you use a force to change its direction then that force is working on the body, even if it is in a fiction less environment, the body is still trying to go in a straight line! If the input stops then the body will fly off in a straight line, so you have to input constant work against the straight line pull!

As no mass has been reported lost then the thread topic stands.

Edit, the mass in the system has not changed, so the energy in the system has not changed.

Edit, +( the Earth )

Regards Trevor
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re: Energy law changes?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi all,

The Earths natural path should be a straight Line, so Gravity is doing work on the Earths Orbit!!!
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