Explanations

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

bobriddle
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 am

Explanations

Post by bobriddle »

The basic principle that Johann Bessler may have been trying to convey in this picture is simple.
A weight hanging froma fulcrum has downward force. And if the weight is allowed to swing on it's fulcrum as a pendulum will do when it's fulcrum rotates past top center ona wheel, it will also have lateral force.
And as 2 opposing levers would cancel each others behavior, the question then would be how much force is required to rotate 2 such arms with weights ?
If the force necessary is less than the lateral force of a swinging weight, then such potential exists within the "frame work" of his drawing.

Jim

edited to add Bessler's drawing. the arrows show the directions that his weight would have useable force.
Attachments
levered force.jpg
User avatar
jim_mich
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7467
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:02 am
Location: Michigan
Contact:

Post by jim_mich »

On page 137 of Bessler's DT book is Bessler's printed image of his Merseburg wheel with its attached pendulum, the ones with the two square weights at the ends of the upper cross-bar and a third weight at the bottom end of the long pendulum shaft. Bessler then proceeds to label the component parts as follows:
(page 137)
There Now Follows A Description Of The External
Appearance Of The Orffyrean Perpetual Motion,
Constructed At Merseburg.
1. Diameter of main wheel.
2. Width of main wheel.
3. Main axis of machine.
4. Framework of boards which support the wheel, and within
which it rotates.
5. Framework for stamping-mill.
(page 138)
6. Four stampers which are raised alternately.
7. 8 arms from the main axis to raise the stampers.
8. Pendulums on each side to keep machine running true.
Ref: Collins page 247
9. Levers for moving the pendulums.
10. Cranks and pivots which are part of the pendulums.
11. Weights at ends of pendulums.
(page 139)
12. From which the pendulums hang vertically.
13. Horizontal hanging for pendulum.
14. Iron screw on axle for fixing rope to.
15. Place at which rope winds on to axle.
16. Indicates total length of line or rope.
17. Pulley attached to floor, round which the rope passes.
18. Hole in board through which rope passes.
(page 140)
19. The rope passes through the window.
20. Pulley outside window, round which the rope passes.
21. Small wooden beam on which the pulley turns.
22. The chest, full of stones, which the wheel raises.
23. Wooden lever to bring machine to rest.
24. Padlock and chain for securing the machine.
Note that the specific reason for the pendulums was, "to keep machine running true." Running true means running at a true even speed, which is what pendulums do. Nothing more. Nothing less.


Image
User avatar
DrWhat
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:41 pm

Post by DrWhat »

I've said it before, the pendulums are an impossibility. They do not work as shown in Bessler's diagrams. They cannot work.

Build them as shown by Bessler and you will see!

(what am I doing back here!...)
User avatar
daxwc
Addict
Addict
Posts: 6700
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:35 am

re: Explanations

Post by daxwc »

Good to hear from you again DRWHAT. Where would you rather be, when there is still a mystery to solve? ;))))

I can’t remember why you thought the pendulums wouldn’t work, can you direct me to the thread.
What goes around, comes around.
daanopperman
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1546
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:43 pm

re: Explanations

Post by daanopperman »

daxwc ,
The pendulum will destroy the wheel if any decrease or increase in wheel rpm takes place .
bobriddle
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 am

re: Explanations

Post by bobriddle »

daxwc,
This is one of the reasons I am considered a fraud by the senior members of this forum and that is okay.
I have told ACB, the person i work with is that I will be using Bessler's wheel to speak out against the discrimination that people with a hearing loss are subjected to.
If not for my hearing loss, I would not have had the time (about 2 years) to sit home and study my own design which used levers working in 4+ dimensions. You know, x, y, z and then the variable axis dependent on rotation of the disc which would change the angle of all axis' attached to the disc. Bessler's wheel is 3 dimensional and requires fewer calculations to understand.
As it is, before Christmas I will be "moving into" a shop. Then I will be able to take my time and do a quality build. Not to be egotistical, but since my work will lead to the first proven perpetual wheel, I do want it to be something fit to be displayed. After all, it will be called Bessler's wheel and I would have no need to belittle his work by doing a poor quality build.
And as everyone knows, what is posted online will always be there for others to read and the attacks on me for working on this while dealing with cancer and complications from surgery in trying to find a peaceful way to speak out against discrimination of the hearing impaired will show just how difficult it is to work around preconceived notions and accepted stereo typing.
BTW, I do have the support of Stefan Hartmann who owns overunity.com and is a German who lives in Berlin, Germany.
Not that I am a German lover but I do like sausage and sauerkraut and have had Helmut Esders who also lives in Germany let me know that he will show me how German's eat Sausage and sauerkraut with a successful build. Being the son of an immigrant, I like the idea of attaching a little cultural exchange to Bessler's wheel as he was a German also.
Still, I will need to buy a few things like a table saw, a planer and some other wood working tools to make the wheel. Unlike other wheels, it does tend to be a bit of a complex machine as all of it's parts do need to work together. So I don't really have much to say about it any more as my medical situation has improved enough to let me return to work. And after the holidays, I'll see what I can afford and work accordingly.

Jim
User avatar
murilo
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3199
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:49 pm
Location: sp - brazil
Contact:

Post by murilo »

DrWhat wrote:I've said it before, the pendulums are an impossibility. They do not work as shown in Bessler's diagrams. They cannot work.

Build them as shown by Bessler and you will see!

(what am I doing back here!...)
Oh, DrWatt!!!

YESSSS... watt are you doing here?

(missed you a little. 8[
bobriddle
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 am

Post by bobriddle »

you know what I like about you guys ? you remind me of why I never much cared for church. of course, this is engineering and you'd think it would be different but it's not.
will build it in time, something about building something like this is like tricking out a car, it allows for a little bit of a person's own creativity to show itself.

edited to add; not sure if I should feel sorry for you guys or not.
User avatar
charly2
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: The City of the Mountains

re: Explanations

Post by charly2 »

Bobriddle, your explanation about the wheel you are going to work sounds very similiar to the one I'm working at this moment, may be we are in the same boat. It sound complex as you explained but is a very simple mechanism once you have built.
I have made about 80% of the parts needed, it is not esay but you will be surpised on its behavior. I don't know how bessler could build it.
And don't worry if no one seems interested, they are working on their ideas, follow yours.
I told you so...
Sincerely, Your Gut Instincts
.·´¯`·.><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
User avatar
Jon J Hutton
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 922
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: Somewhere

re: Explanations

Post by Jon J Hutton »

Where is the like button for the post from charly2. Good advice! I never paide much attention to weather or not the build was simple or comples because in the mind of a master craftsman like Bessler the term becomes realitive. In one place Bessler told how easy his wheel was to put together and another place he mentioned how he had great difficulty in getting the timing correct for it to run.

JJH
Euphoria, Big dreams, Oooops I forgot about that, Recalculate, Bad words edited out, Depression, Tare up everything, I wonder what would happen if I changed.......Yes!, Euphoria, .......
bobriddle
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 am

Re: re: Explanations

Post by bobriddle »

charly2 wrote:Bobriddle, your explanation about the wheel you are going to work sounds very similiar to the one I'm working at this moment, may be we are in the same boat. It sound complex as you explained but is a very simple mechanism once you have built.
I have made about 80% of the parts needed, it is not esay but you will be surpised on its behavior. I don't know how bessler could build it.
And don't worry if no one seems interested, they are working on their ideas, follow yours.
Thanks for the advice :-)
Sometimes I think I have spent to much time working out the details. I do have a design I like and will probably start on it this weekend. Will probably take a while but I think it will be time and money well spent.
Sometimes I do marvel at how much effort Bessler put into his work.
I think what people miss sometimes is that in Roman times, successive water wheels (10 in a row) would operate on textile mill. With Bessler's wheel, it could have encouraged the industrial revolution by allowing manufacturing plants to have their own source of power.
Think I'm about to go a little over board on histroy here so I do apologize but I think that when 10 bobbins of thread were spun at the same time that the Industrial Revolution is considered to have started and that is about the same time Bessler built his wheels. One in England and one in Germany. I almost wonder what would have happened if they got together.
bobriddle
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 am

Re: re: Explanations

Post by bobriddle »

charly2 wrote:Bobriddle, your explanation about the wheel you are going to work sounds very similiar to the one I'm working at this moment, may be we are in the same boat. It sound complex as you explained but is a very simple mechanism once you have built.
I have made about 80% of the parts needed, it is not esay but you will be surpised on its behavior. I don't know how bessler could build it.
And don't worry if no one seems interested, they are working on their ideas, follow yours.
Thanks for the advice :-)
Sometimes I think I have spent to much time working out the details. I do have a design I like and will probably start on it this weekend. Will probably take a while but I think it will be time and money well spent.
Sometimes I do marvel at how much effort Bessler put into his work.
I think what people miss sometimes is that in Roman times, successive water wheels (10 in a row) would operate on textile mill. With Bessler's wheel, it could have encouraged the industrial revolution by allowing manufacturing plants to have their own source of power.
Think I'm about to go a little over board on histroy here so I do apologize but I think that when 10 bobbins of thread were spun at the same time that the Industrial Revolution is considered to have started and that is about the same time Bessler built his wheels. One in England and one in Germany. I almost wonder what would have happened if they got together.

@John J, with what I am working on, it has become simpler over time. I am hopeful that building it will follow the same path. I have made previous efforts and hope I have learned enough from those attempts.
bobriddle
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:01 am

Re: re: Explanations

Post by bobriddle »

daanopperman wrote:daxwc ,
The pendulum will destroy the wheel if any decrease or increase in wheel rpm takes place .
daanopperman,
I'll give away what Bessler has said many times, the weights work together. When both pendulums are falling together, one on each side of the wheel, their blows to the wheel will be cushioned by the water they are pumping.
This also allows the pendulum moving upwards towards top center to do as much work as the one moving downward not wasting any potential.
With a 4:1 ratio and to weights working together, the ratio baloons up to 8:1. And if you have as an example 98n-m's of torque, it would easily move 5kg's of water.
The torque would be equivalent to 10 kg's at 1 meter. It would take 1.25 kg's at a ratio of 8:1 to generate that much force.
And as Bessler would say, simple enough for him to understand. I'm still amazed by what the guy knew.
Kind of why I am willing to spend the money and what time it takes me, his work is worth more than what it will cost me :-)

edited to add, when Bessler said he made more pulleys and levers, the pulleys would be for connecting the levers/pendulums so they work together. Where you have pulley's, you also have lines/chords/ropes, etc.

edited to add; Stefan Hartmann, moderator of overunity.com has let me know he is interested in seeing me post more videos detailing different aspects of Bessler's wheel. Since it will take time for the build I am doing, I will in the next week r so be posting some vidoes show how Bessler's water pumps worked as well as how his levers/penulums might have worked together. I have let Stefan know that I think Bessler would be something close to a genius for the work he accomplished.

Jim
edited to add; made a quick video showing how 2 opposing levers move in a wheel and suggest how they might work together.
The other links are for how much over balance is required to rotate a wheel and also a demonstration of a basic water pump shooting water which Bessler did mention that his weights "shot out".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFE9Gz8A ... e=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJRhqXdRrbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOl2dJaavS8

with pumps, when one pumps or discharges, it will be into another pump above it on the wheel. If you watch the first link, imagine as the wheel rotating that it is constantly pumping water upwards into an empty chamber. And once you can understand that, then you can start to understand everything Bessler said. And hopefully everything he wrote won't be made known so some people can realize some things for themselves.
User avatar
charly2
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: The City of the Mountains

re: Explanations

Post by charly2 »

Bob, my prototype is based on full 3d movement like yours, it could use pulleys but I prefer gears. But re-reading your posts I realized we are playing quite different. I employ fast rotating parts (1500 or more rmp) in the bi-directional wheel with two arms only.
Please look at my avatar.
I told you so...
Sincerely, Your Gut Instincts
.·´¯`·.><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
User avatar
jim_mich
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7467
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:02 am
Location: Michigan
Contact:

re: Explanations

Post by jim_mich »

My trusty Machinery's Handbook spends seven pages discussing safe operating speeds for flywheels. It begins with the strongest of flyweel designs, which is a solid one piece cast iron. I picked the following data from a list of "Safe Speeds for Cast-Iron Flywheels with Solid Rims"...

Code: Select all

1 ft = 1680 RPM
2 ft = 840 RPM
3 ft = 560 RPM
4 ft = 420 RPM
5 ft = 336 RPM
6 ft = 280 RPM
7 ft = 240 RPM
8 ft = 210 RPM
9 ft = 187 RPM
10 ft = 168 RPM
20 ft = 84 RPM
30 ft = 56 RPM
I post this because of your statement, "I employ fast rotating parts (1500 or more rmp) in the bi-directional wheel with two arms only.
Please look at my avatar."
I take this to mean you anticipate a 1500 RPM wheel?

We now have carbon fiber materials that are stronger and lighter than cast-iron I find it doubtful that any reasonable wheel could be built to operate at twice the speeds of this list, the reason being that at twice these speeds centrifugal force would be four times as great and would rip apart all the components of the wheel.

You might want to look at this post concerning CF.

Image
Post Reply