Gravity vs. Centrifugal Force

[smith66]

@All,
I'm going to be asking a few favors from people like Dwayne and some of those he is discussing conservation of momentum with. I think since people do acknowledge he is quite capable in understanding math and how he can apply it to various forces in physics, he might be the "go to guy" in something like this.
With the 3 pictures I posted at the end of this post, they show Mt 125 from 3 different perspectives. And with the link to a video I uploaded, it would show a basic way (outline) that a bellows could work.
Just as ovyyus showed one way associated with Bessler's drawings, this would show how what ovyyus was thinking is shown differently in another drawing.
And with rlortie saying gravity made bessler's wheels work and Jim_Mich saying, sorry Ralph, no disrespect, but you are wrong. It was centrifugal force that made his wheels work.
So I guess Dwayne, what I would be asking if you could do the math to show a relationship between a wheel's diameter and mass and then the mass of the weight's and the work they could potentially do if they were to pump something like water.
There would be 2 different scenarios to consider, one is with a load being placed on the axle, i.e.. the wheel would be performing work. and the second scenario is if it were built for speed or endurance. In this manner, could using lighter weights allow centrifugal force to generate more potential for work than a slower moving, heavier weight ?
I hope you and the guys you've been discussing conservation of momentum with will give this some thought. It is one thing if successful that would show a direct link between Bessler's drawings and his claims of perpetuallity.

A link to a video showing the basic outline of a curved or warped bellow minus the material for pumping air or fluids.

http://youtu.be/ilh3Z6Xdo0w

All drawings are the property of John Collins. John, as you can tell, I "mirrored" or flipped Mt 125 and then I rotated it 22.5 degrees. Just as Bessler created the name orffyreus by "mirroring" the position of the letters of the alphabet by placing the first 13 letters above the next thirteen letters,
it allows his drawing to be shown working in a clockwise direction of which is the normal view for people who watch something rotate. An example of this, when wheels on a horse and buggy or on a motor vehicle rotate in a clockwise direction, they are considered to be moving forward.


p.s., Dwayne, there is one possible drawback if you and the people you've been discussing things show that with gravity, a wheel would want to work and where with centrifugal forc e, it would need a push to get it started is that for the next 30 or 40 years everybody would have to listen to Ralph telling Jim_Mich, see, I was right, I tried telling you over and over that it was gravity. Of course, Jim_Mich would respond by telling Ralph, But I was right, see ? Right here they showed it was because of centrifugal force that his wheel worked. I'm not sure if exposing everyone to something like that would be such a good idea, lmao ;_p

[smith66]

How much force does it take to rotate a wheel ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7q1aWS26WM

[triplock]

Smith66

Having taken a look at your video it is my opinion that , no matter what you do, in terms of weight displacement / movement around a fixed axle, the summation of all forces will ALWAYS = 0.

There is no getting away from that fact. It is indisputable.

Regards

Chris

[smith66]

Chris,
>> Having taken a look at your video it is my opinion that , no matter what you do, in terms of weight displacement / movement around a fixed axle, the summation of all forces will ALWAYS = 0. <<

You have correctly stated the reason why perpetual motion (gravity power) is impossible. But there is something that has been over looked.
It is something that ovyyus has alluded to in what he built. Kind of pirating his work to show how he could try it a little bit different. If he were willing to do so, then he could show what Bessler was trying to get across in some of his drawings. I mean really, he did take the time to build it so he must have found something interesting about it or it's potential.

You see, as the weights rotate 360 degrees >> the summation of all forces will ALWAYS = 0 <<
But when the 2 opposing weights both drop, one creates a vacuum while the other creates pressure. This would allow to weights to move a weight equal to one of them. And this can shift the balance of something that they're acting on.
What needs to be remembered is that at an angle of 45 degrees that the 2 weights would have a total force potential of 1.4 times the mass of one weight.
And while this might not work perpetually, it would show how weights can work together to pump water more efficiently than one weight alone could.

edited to add; I just realized a whopper of a mistake I was about to make. in Bessler's Mt 24 drawing, there is something I think everyone has over looked. It is a line in the drawing than is thinner than the others. This shows a path believe it or not.
Just as I show ovyyus' bellows 180 degrees apart, the bellow on the right would need to be rotated 45 degrees clock wise. A part of this is the position of the weights in relation to the bellow their operating. And as anyone familiar with bellows knows that the flow through them is controlled by what is essentially stop or one way valves.
Who knows, maybe ovyyus might be willing to demonstrate this.

[zoelra]

@smith66

Are you really talking about MT24 or is that a typo? If MT24, I can post a high res version so you can point out the line.

[smith66]

zoelra,
I would appreciate it if you could. Since Bessler used a vertical switch ov the letters in his name, do you think you could flip it so 6 and 12 o'clock switch places ?
If you do that, then you might notice the going from 6:30 to 1:30.
About the only way it makes any mind of sense is if there's some kind of connevtion there.

Jim

[zoelra]

@smith66

The file size is 970Kb. The limit here is 100Kb. Let me see what I can do.

[zoelra]

Here is the closest I can get. I will post a small version of the entire page. I can grab any section you want.

[zoelra]

Page including MT24 and MT25.

[zoelra]

Are you thinking MT24 consists of bellows?

My personal opinion is the illustration shows a method of creating overbalance, not by shifting weight outwards, but by moving weights along the periphery (on the descending side) towards the 9pm position, thereby shifting the center of mass towards the descending side. Hope this makes sense. Looking at MT24, I believe it would rotate CCW.

[smith66]

Zoelra,
I'll see about posting something tomorrow. I'll be able to take a better look at what you posted tomorrow. The following math shows how a lighter weight can have more force.
This should mean that when mass to velocity is considered, it would seem that a heavier, slower rotating wheel would be able to form more work while a lighter wheel could be built for endurance and/or speed.
Since mv^2/r is what denotes centrifugal force, then
1 kg * 3 m/s^2 / 1.5 meter radius equals 6 newtons
while 2 kg's * 2 m/s^2 / 1.5 meter racius equals 4.00 newtons.
Who would think that 1/2 the mass could generate 50% more force ?
And when you consider that force equals mass times accele.ration (velocity), then it takes less force to produce more centrifugal force.
Of course, anyone who wants can check my math :-)

edited to correct math

[smith66]

Zoelra,
There are 2 things I've forgot to mention.
The first is that the screw threads refered to in Mt 24 are found in the design of Mt 60.
Mt 60 shows the 2 sections similar to what ovyyus built.
The second is that 2 opposing sides 135 degrees apart mights show where the weights work together.

@All, to simplify the gravity versus centrifubal force, if you have 2 wheels, one 1 meter in diameter and the other 2 meters in diameter. And the smaller wheel uses 1 kg weight's while the other uses 2 kg weight and both have the same 2 m/s rim speed.
The weights on both wheels would have the same amount of centrifugal force.

@zoelra, if a basic set up were nuilt, it might be able to confirm that weignts work better together 135 degrees apart. With a wheel, pulleys would allow weights to work together on the same lever.

[smith66]

Page including MT24 and MT25.

I'll post the pic of Mt 24 that J.C. put up and see if anyone else sees the two lines in that drawing. I may end up having to cut a round disc as a "working wheel" to try some things.
as for Mt 60, try reading this clue and then look at Mt 60.

"No. 24: This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of separate levers with weights. Between the weights are small iron poles with screw threads. The poles fall inward when the levers close. There is something one must learn first before one can grasp and correctly understand the good quality of the invention."
- Johann Bessler

This one of the reasons why I consider Mt 24 to be using bellows. they do seem to show clearly in Mt 60.
If you look at B and C on Mt 60, it is almost like the screw threads are saying pumped out or drawn in. And with the inverted Mt 24, it seems the 2 weights that would be working would be in a good position to do so.
It would also limit how much fluid is used by limiting the number of bellows that would be filled.
I think some of this will take time but that is okay. There is much to Bessler's work. :-)

edited to add; when the levers close as Bessler put it, the bellows opens.

[smith66]

zoelra,
Here is something o think about.
If where the red oval is represents water in that bellow, in what direction would it rotate and what would happen to the lever/bellow combination as it rotates ?
Of course, the bellow would be pointed upward :-) There always seems to be a catch.

added another pic :-)

[Stewart]

Between the weights are small iron poles with screw threads.

That has been translated wrongly - "screw threads" should be "hinges".

Stewart