Excess Weight

[graham]

Since recently getting a copy of John Collins Publication of " Das Triumphirende" which I highly recommend, I have thought a lot about
J B's skimpy and misleading description of how his machine worked.

His very nature of which you get a good taste by reading his very words would not allow him to give anything away. He could not deny what the eyewitnesses saw and heard , namely the noise of weights hitting boards at what could be the "home"position and also the fact that the wheel was indeed spinning.

When questioned about the noise he assured all that this was caused by the driving force itself, as he could not quiet his machine down he had to give that much away. I don't believe he would outright lie ,I get this impression about his character from reading Johns book.

However he was a master at throwing people off the track without actually lying so he come up with the term "principle of excess weight".

Figure a way to have the weights return to their home position at a higher angular velocity than the rest of the wheel and youv'e got yourself a Bessler wheel.

Graham

[Michael]

Hi graham,

Of course that is an assumption. There is no statement that that sound was made by a landing weight. It could be a kickback from spring pressure. If it was a weight I don't see why he couldn't put a compression spring there to absorb the impact, then again maybe he couldn't. It could be any number of things, your idea included.

Reg. ,

Mike

[graham]

Hi Michael, of course you're absolutely right ,there are so many possibilities.

What I was trying to get across was that anything JB said about his wheels motive power should not be taken at face value.
By calling his secret the "principle of excess weight" he may have alluded to "excess inertia" being that weight and inertia are brothers.

Graham

[Michael]

Hi Graham,

I totally agree with that, sort of. I haven't really seen anything where Bessler says the secret is in excess weight. What he does say is to figure out the secret you must figure out how to make 4 pounds move 16 pounds. There are several ways to do this. The first is unremarkable and I don't think this would be the way, have the lesser weight move a greater distance. Bessler seems to say both weights move an equal distance, and it especially seems this way when he refute Wagner. There is a way to do this by giving the lesser weight a higher velocity. Tension released from a spring would fit this requirement. There is also mention that Bessler figured out how to make his machines with no weights so f this principle was used it would make sense in that stored then released tension would drive the machine, but how it was to be stored without weight is a question. Maybe there is an answer there.

Reg.

Michael

[graham]

Hi there Michael, you wrote the following in your previous post.

I haven't really seen anything where Bessler says the secret is in excess weight.

I am referring to JB's description of how his wheel worked found in Johns book "Das Triumpherende" page 20. He says "For this concept my principle of excess weight" etc etc.....

This is where it came from and this is what I believe is possibly a "red herring" leading one to a false conclusion that his was an overbalanced wheel when in fact it was powered by the impact of weights and the reaction thereto.

By the way is the Victoria where you live the one in Australia ?

Graham

[Vic Hays]

Hi Michael, of course you're absolutely right ,there are so many possibilities.

What I was trying to get across was that anything JB said about his wheels motive power should not be taken at face value.
By calling his secret the "principle of excess weight" he may have alluded to "excess inertia" being that weight and inertia are brothers.

Graham

Graham

Maybe excess weight could also allude to centrifugal force. Also regarding the thread on gyroscopes, could the weight in the wheel be shifted by gyroscopic action? The gyroscope can do both. There was a picture of a top which suggests a gyroscope and centrifugal force. JB was a clockmaker and was perhaps capable of more complex mechanical devices than have been discussed.

[AlanR]

re the gyroscope reference, amazing things.... like how they "weigh" more when spinning in one direction, and less in the other... (very small difference, but measureable)

The reference to Bessler saying that the machine works with NO weights... my thinking here is that the actual framework / components used always have mass of course, so he meant explicit, discrete weights, which can be seen as exagerations of the mass of the other bars, pulleys, or whatever else was used.
Personally i think that the properties of gyroscopes play a role. There is a lot of work in this area (pretty much ongoing currently) where people like Sandy Kidd and others are furthering knowledge in this fascinating subject.

[graham]

Hi Vic & Alan, I think that gyroscopes, which are a fascinating subject to explore are probably not a factor in JB's wheel.
Remember we are talking about the early sixteenth century where there was no access to modern hardware. A gyroscope has to be driven at a high rate of speed on virtually frictionless bearings , today I believe they are driven by electric motors.
So while it might be possible in todays world to come up with an idea that employs gyroscopes I don't think that it would be a Bessler wheel but an entirely different animal.

C F is another matter, but since his wheels started with a "small impressed force" it leads me to believe that although it had to be a consideration in his design it was probably not the "excess weight" he spoke of.

Graham