right angle to axis clue

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raj
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re: right angle to axis clue

Post by raj »

Balanced?
Negative Torque?
Impact?
Positive Torque?
Impetus?
Reset?
Conservation of Angular Momentum?
Increase of Moment of Inertia?
Continuous Rotation?

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Post by Silvertiger »

A right angle to an axis of rotation forms a right triangle, hence torque. That's what torque is: you have a load, a fulcrum, and an effort on your basic lever. The position of the effort along the length of the lever acts perpendicular (at right angles) to the axis (axle/fulcrum). That's pretty much all he was describing. But there may be a clue in that little statement. Example: A 12 inch lever is sitting at an angle of 85 degrees above ground-parallel with one pound at the end of it. Obviously you wouldn't calculate your torque based on a 12 inch lever if you're using gravity as your acceleration for the one pound. You would calculate your torque based on the ground-parallel leg of the right triangle, which is the length of the lever at that moment. That length is not 12. It is 1.05. Very little torque at that position: only a mere foot-pound. But Bessler stated that they act at right angles to the axis, which MAY imply a constant torque whose vector changes with the rotation such that the lever length can remain the same. Imagine full lever-length torque on one side of the wheel and only gravity-based torque on the other. This would no doubt be explained by his "connectedness principle" and definitely create the long-sought-after torque bias. Just a thought. :)

And from a mechanical perspective, just to form a visual of that arrangement of torque triangles, one would see a wheel divided vertically: the ascending side's gravity-induced torque angles would look like half a circle, and the descending side's connectivity-induced torque angles would look like half a square IF gravity were acting on the descending side's weights. So you end up looking at a full circle anyway, but it's just a visual. But if the weights on the descending side DID somehow magically manage to fall vertically straight down on rotation rather than follow a circular path then one would definitely have something.
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re: right angle to axis clue

Post by Silvertiger »

Quick picture. The one on the left is what you would want to extract using gravity. The one on the right uses gravity on the left side and right-angled torques only on the right. Is this what Bessler somehow did, out of his however many working machines he made, as each he stated drew from different principles?
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Post by helloha »

MrVibrating wrote:According to Oystein on the previous page, what Bessler actually said was "the wheel will raise weights up, and to this side, where the weights are high up, in this direction, will the wheel also turn"
I have not seem this clue before, where's it from ?
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re: right angle to axis clue

Post by ovaron »

I always wandered where Besler said that "weights apply force at right angle to the axis".
Thanks to Oystein i could finally identify the passage where he spoke about "Vorticis verticals" what was translated to "right angle to the axis".

Bessler there talks not about the interior weights that drive the wheel but about exterior weights (loads) that can be lifted at right angle to the axis.

So we can forget about this "clue".
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Post by Stewart »

ovaron wrote:Bessler there talks not about the interior weights that drive the wheel but about exterior weights (loads) that can be lifted at right angle to the axis.

So we can forget about this "clue".
Ovaron is correct about this, as I've mentioned several times on the forum before.

I'm just working on a post about the wheel description given in DT as that's the next item in Rocky's clue translations thread, but here are a few posts from previous discussion:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1342#61342

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 087#139087

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re: right angle to axis clue

Post by helloha »

I'm assuming the "wheel will raise weights up, and to this side, where..." is to replaced the "right angle to axis", so the sentence should change from
"Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs, or other hanging weights which require winding up, or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, these weights, on the contrary, are the essential parts, and constitute the perpetual motion itself; since from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or other of them must apply its weight at right angles to the axis, which in its turn must also move."
to
"Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs, or other hanging weights which require winding up, or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, these weights, on the contrary, are the essential parts, and constitute the perpetual motion itself; since from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, the wheel will raise weights up, and to this side, where the weights are high up, in this direction, will the wheel also turn."
Anyway which sentence replace which ?

"one or other of them" -> ????

"apply its weight at right angles to axis" -> "wheel raise weights up, to this side, where weights are high up"

"which in its turn must also move" -> "in this direction, will the wheel also turn" (this one is easy)

also while the new sentence has the "wheel" word, the old sentence don't have that word, so might need to make some adjustment
one or other of them must apply its weight at right angles to the axis, which in its turn must also move (old sentence)

the wheel will raise weights up, and to this side, where the weights are high up, in this direction, will the wheel also turn (new sentence)
‘If you can’t explain it to a 11-year-old, you probably don’t understand it yourself.’
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