M Turbine Question & Answers

[John doe]

This topic is for you to contribute to the concept.
That has been put forward in other topics.

I would like to start a paired topic 'M. Turbine' that will be a mini-blog.

Please help here on this Topic's Q&A and leave the other topic for the staged examples.

Note: There is a poll running on this topic. That will give me an ongoing feedback rating.

Argo,
Here is an idea I used to play around with back in the 90's. When one weight is in the "down" position, it does not rotate with the disc. This allows the 2 levers that are elevated to have force. The disc will tilt in the direction of the lever with more force.
It tends to be complicated. And the link is to a working SMOT device. I think since he uses magnets, it is not considered perpetual motion. And with my "simple" design, magnets might allow it to work more easily or even just work.
The trick would be as the video shows, the magnet attracts as a steel weight and then the magnets position changes so it no longer is attracted to the steel weight.

If you look at the 3:00 minute mark, the magnet is starting to drop as the steel bearing approaches it. With a disc like mine, the weighted lever would drop instead of the magnet. And this would cause the disc to rotate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs

If this machine has been working for years except for occasional maintenance then PMM has been proven? Why are we still buying energy that is not supplied from this device ?

[agor95]

It would be good to have james.lindgard post on it's own thread.

Then we will know we are talking about the work on the M.Turbine.

To clarify all posts from Jame's post to this one are not related to the thread header.

[agor95]

Here is something to wonder about - this should help people to see

A swimmer swims, a jumper jumps
The sleeper sleeps, a talker talks.
The wind blows, the fire smokes….
A catcher catch, a thrower throws

John Collins "PM; An Ancient Mystery Solved?", p.169:

A wheel appears on the scene.
Is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim.

It revolves, but without wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind or springs.
Bessler is not calling his device a wheel

The order is a hint that action of each should be focused on, look hard, you will miss the truth or fiction.

I will put this on the M. Turbine Q&A topic. Then this topic can roll-on.

Seen sideways or full-face it is as bright as a peacock's tail,

It turns to the right and the left;
it spins in either direction, laden or empty.

[agor95]

Revolves

With regards to this rocker device and Bessler's clues.

A revolving frame, in this case an arm, has two main action properties.

Friction & Moment of Inertial [MoI]

Once energy is put into the rotating frame it will continue until friction
brings is back to agree with the outer 'Frame of Reference'.

Torque is how the outside world interacts within it's 'Frame of Reference'.

There are 3 sources of Torque:

1. The weight on the left.
It would be better if this pulled the arm up leaving a slight slope.
The weight should be resting on the base to achieve this result.

2. The ball should start rolling down this slope near the pivot to the end.
In a modified version

3. As we see the CW rotation is stopped by the Torque supplied by the arm hitting the base.

What is of merit; energy is required to change MoI.
P. Energy is supplied by the weight. Also P. Energy comes from the Ball.

The earth supplies K. Energy to stop it's rotation.

This is in terms of the 'Rotating Frame of Reference'.

People pass by change of momentum of the earth
as it is big and we are standing on it.

We live in earth's 'Frame of Reference'.

On this basis; the class of this device, were the energy source is the earth's momentum, is a Momentum. Turbine.

P.S. The modern terms of Perpetual Motion demands a closed system.
This system is open due to it's external energy source.
Sorry, we live in the 21st century. In 1712 you can call it a PM Machine.

[agor95]

I would like to thank the support received by those who have contributed to the poll on this topic. It's 4 to continue and 2 against.

If you have found this enlightening; then the poll will be a good way to show your appreciation.

I would like to acknowledge :-
Furcurequs for his fantastic ray-tracing examples.
In my quest for a Visual programming software.

ME for his advice on how to represent formulas via Unicode.
x= (-b ± √[b²-4·a·c]) / (2·a)

Sam Peppiatt for general support
oldNick for general support

[agor95]

@AB

There is going to be some negative effects.

I think there is a way to reduce the effect at during the
knock back and spring forward.

As you say 'just for an instant'; then the positive torque is around for longer.

I was going to find the rotation speed limits.
However 26 RPM was good for bessler, then it is good for us.

The Visual Python coding and the math will allow for some simulation tests.

Sorry for taking so long. One can not be everywhere.

P.S. can you put in a link to the ground walker?

[agor95]

Turns

It turns to the right and the left

This is our favorite MT51 Item A.
Due to this component being made to only rotate in
one direction. It indicates it is part of the device.

The pivot is the 'Frame of Reference'

The main inertia is in the weight.

The component interacts by the combined acceleration effects on the weight.

Attaching this to the Revolving frame means it can exploit what the previous component does not.

The revolving component is released from AG, as it is in a stand via an axle;Also it is balanced.

The strength of the material releases the revolving component of AR.

Both are picked up by the Turning component.

I realised the weight can move down the rode to the pivot.

Due to this simple extra point you should see a reduction in
negative torque.

There is an extra, simple static, component that does all the timing from the 5 o'clock to 12 o'clock.

I am surprised it is not in the Bessler's drawings.

[John doe]

Here is something to wonder about - this should help people to see

A swimmer swims, a jumper jumps
The sleeper sleeps, a talker talks.
The wind blows, the fire smokes….
A catcher catch, a thrower throws

John Collins "PM; An Ancient Mystery Solved?", p.169:

A wheel appears on the scene.
Is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim.

It revolves, but without wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind or springs.
Bessler is not calling his device a wheel




The order is a hint that action of each should be focused on, look hard, you will miss the truth or fiction.

I will put this on the M. Turbine Q&A topic. Then this topic can roll-on.

Seen sideways or full-face it is as bright as a peacock's tail,

It turns to the right and the left;
it spins in either direction, laden or empty.

I have not spent a lot of time working on this particular puzzle I think it is pretty straight forward and can be summed up this The components do what they are designed to do because that's what they are designed to do. The specific jobs are IMO pretty straight forward but without a good grasp of old German any nuisances could easily be missed or misinterpreted. There are too many other clues more readily available to decipher or understand.

[agor95]

@John Doe

Thanks; I will keep your advice it mind.

[John doe]

I think the reasons some of this information appears to be contradictory is because bessler had various wheels which IMO used different mechanisms in different ways to achieve the necessary objectives.

[agor95]

I would like to sim' this; however something is better that nothing.

This shows the movement I am trying to validate.

[Fletcher]

Agor .. what force (ma) is lifting the weight after 12 o'cl ?

In the animation it appears the weight is able to slide along the pole. In the process of a force giving it GPE and KE it moves up the pole, which then flips and the weight continues upwards to the end and the highest position with most GPE. It does this with some speed so it loses some KE as wasted energy when it reaches its stop.

This means the lifting force is quite large - enough to move the weight quickly and give it GPE J's PLUS wasted KE J's of a quick transfer and stop.

The repositioning and lifting of the weight gives the wheel torque.

On the way down the weight collides with an external stop causing it to 'bounce' i.e. lift inwards and gain GPE etc again.

So in essence there are two lifts per sector (8) to be accomplished.

The positive torque per sector must be greater than the negative torque per sector.

If a free force was doing the lifting it would work. If you are relying on positive torque manipulated to do that lifting then IMO it won't be a runner.

[agor95]

This is a quick and dirty demo of the movement.

The weight is moved by Acceleration due to Rotation [CF].

There is conservation of annular momentum to take into account.

I have no problem in having a device that needs to be primed with rotation.

Then there needs to be positive torque to combat friction at least.

After finding the operational rotation rate for the 12 o’cl phase, the next section, can be clarified.

The tangential velocity of a 4 pound weight bouncing with the outer position of 6 feet from the hub centre. There is some K.E. to play with.

Lets look at each phase and find a solution.

[Fletcher]

Ok .. you don't seem to have answered my questions.

I can easily sim this, but it can be made much simpler by having the weights at end of levers at all times, instead of sliding up the poles and then staying there (that requires latches and timed release etc).

Latches are hard in WM so if I don't have to use them I don't.

The force to lift the 'swinging' weight at or about 12 is the same as it trying to slide the weight up the pole due to release and weights momentum/inertia.

Both methods will result in the same GPE gain and F x d = J's. We are only interested in the vertical component of force and vertical component of distance.

Whether that will happen and at what rpm is another matter.

P.S. the other thing to consider is the weight lever lifting inwards and upwards at the bottom. When it moves it is not contributing its mass to that side of the wheel, which creates negative torque in the wheel.

[agor95]

@Fletcher

Thanks for your help with a sim'

1. What force (ma) is lifting the weight 12 o'cl?
[CF] Acceleration due to Rotation
Really Tangential Velocity inertia + Stored CF as [PE]

2. The lift force is quite large - agreed [CF]

3. Lifting the weight gives torque - agreed

4. Weight collides - minor point reduction in [CF]
GPE is not required from this point until 12 o'cl

5. Two lifts per sector (8) to be accomplished - agreed
12 o'cl free due to rotation.
Conservation of momentum requirement at this point.
lift 5 o'cl is paid for by momentum transfer from the block.

6. Positive torque greater than negative torque - agreed requirement

7. The forces MOI, Structural Stress & Negative Torque [the bounce]

P.S. For international reader a '?' at the end of the sentence helps.
I know I am the last one to make a comment.
It is a good way to flag up questions.

Note. I know you are bigger the a little comment in the PS.

Regards