What does 'something that works' mean?

[ovyyus]

This meaning is important for understanding and clarifying claims of 'something that works' made on this forum.

I hope for around 24 participating member votes in this poll. Perhaps we'll find a general consensus or understanding of the term. Please feel free to comment about your choice and reasoning.

My vote is that 'something that works' means an actual working model. My reasoning is that an idea or concept cannot be said to be 'something that works' without first demonstrating it with an actual working model.

[ME]

I just translate Jim's "something that works" to "something viable", as a plan is also something like a "work in progress"... (Jim confirmed)

When seen literally as a comment which should stand on itself in the contect of this forum, then I agree. Something that works should mean something that's technically capable of performing perpetual motion: I still allow it to fail when a practical attempt is tried, while it's still reasonable to try again (hopefully better).

Actually at this moment I don't know what to choose, but I lean towards the first option.
Perhaps I'm too soft?

[Fcdriver]

A concept is only a concept! A working wheel to a Bessler standard is one that can do work, not just spin! A working wheel should produce some amount of power, for a defined length of time, without stopping or slowing!

[jim_mich]

There should be a third meaning. Which would be simply the original step [A] of MY PLAN: "First get something that works!!!" The problem here is that many don't understand what that means.

Long before you can build a working functioning perpetual motion wheel, you need to find some principle, some concept, some method, some mechanism that works in such a manner that it will produces perpetual motion.

So the very first step to finding perpetual motion is to identify something the works. A good engineer can take most any perpetual motion design or concept and analyze it so as to determine if it is a mechanisms that will work. If the analysis shows that it will work, then you have found something that works. You don't yet have a functioning working wheel, but you do have something that will work when built.

Such is the very first thing that needs to be done before you can build a functioning model. You must first find a concept that works. Most people don't have the engineering background to do the needed analysis to determine if a concept will work. So for those individuals, it is best they build PM wheels as proof.

Since there are many people unable to do the engineering needed to prove that a concept will work, in the end, a building of a functioning wheel is the ultimate proof.

"Something that works" is NOT just any quick idea or rough concept or sketch. It is a fully developed and calculated method, concept, principle, or mechanism that has passed full scrutiny and can be likened to dropping a 12 foot plank across a ten foot creek. You just know absolutely that it will span the creek.

I’ve made this clear before, but it seems that some forum members just can’t comprehend the meaning of “something that works�.

And Bill keeps harping about this because he tried to twist the meaning of MY PLAN so as to use it as an excuse to accuse me of lying, so as to deflect from his own lie.

So I can't vote here, since the right and proper meaning of "something that works" is not presented as a choice.

[ovyyus]

The 'MotionGate' Story:

Jim_mich offered me a trade in favour of me editing one of my forum posts. JM said he was making small demonstration model motion wheels and that I would receive one of them if I edited a forum post that jeopardised his patent application. I congratulated JM on his success and asked about delivery time. JM accepted my thanks and said it would take about 3 months. I agreed to the trade and immediately edited my forum post.

At the time of this trade, forum members acknowledged JM’s commitment to his ‘THE PLAN’. Certainly, everyone agreed that ‘STEP A] first get something that works!!!’ must come first and that ‘something that works’ meant a working wheel, not just a concept or idea. This was the general understanding at the time of JM’s trade offer to me. Furthermore, JM said he was making small working demonstration models, which is STEP F] of his ‘THE PLAN’. I was suitably impressed and awaited my small demonstration motion wheel because JM had solved the problem - woohoo!

More than 3 months passed and still no delivery of my small demonstration wheel. After much forum discussion JM finally reveals that his small demonstration models were not in fact being made and accused me of lying about him ever having an actual working wheel.

When I called JM out for his deceptive behavior, he said that it was my fault for assuming he had a working wheel and suggested the steps in his ‘THE PLAN’ could be taken in no particular order. This defense was met with vigorous forum criticism so JM changed his definition of STEP A] to then mean a concept or principle, and accused me of lying in order to cover my mistake. Whew! That’s where the respective positions have remained.

So why did JM deceive me? Because JM knew that it was the only way to convince me to edit my forum post. JM knew there was no way I would edit my post if I knew all he had was an idea or concept.

Q: Does ‘something that works’ mean something that actually works?

A: Yes - always did, always will.

Let the poll decide.

[preoccupied]

An idea or concept could be considered a working model if it gives a good explanation for why a build would not be possible, such as because of Time Travel or an anomaly like a time loop that would delete the idea from existence before it could exist; therefore only leaving not building the idea but understanding it as the closest you will get to a gravity wheel.

[eccentrically1]

I voted for an actual working model, the same standard the patent office requires. Maxwell had a concept for a thermodynamic PM mechanism, and he might have thought it would work. But, he never built the demon, and subsequent physics ANALYSIS has shown it wouldn't work if built. The same analysis shows a mechanical demon wouldn't work if built.

[Fletcher]

The problem that arises in this site is the regular parade of individuals who come along claiming to have a working gravity wheel/engine etc.

Many times under questioning examination or self publication they are found to be simply delusional or thinly veiled scamers attempting to set up the mark (they can want money, your time, your expertise, your resources, your attention, whatever).

Sometimes they are bona fide upright and honest people who are simply mistaken when the secrecy is stripped away and the machine and its mechanical workings are fully revealed. I have no problem whatsoever with this latter group. It happens.

Each time, inevitably, the question is always asked.

What do you mean by a 'working wheel' ?

To me, 'working' is not a 'sure thing' concept.

It is a mechanically working device.

It can periodically break down because it needs better construction etc (that's kaizan - constant improvement). But its principle of imminent operation must be sound and fit for purpose.

A concept, no matter how detailed and well drawn, will never be a 'working' wheel/engine etc. It will be a design and concept perhaps highly plausible, or not, depending on the information provided and experimental proofs done and published.

So you know which way I voted.

[barksalot]

My vote, an actual working model.

[rlortie]

Bill wrote:

So why did JM deceive me? Because JM knew that it was the only way to convince me to edit my forum post. JM knew there was no way I would edit my post if I knew all he had was an idea or concept.

IIRC, I was also involved with this scenario, I pointed out that Jim may be revealing more than he should which Bill picked up on.

I too am still waiting for my desk top model!

A working wheel is a proven machine, not a concept or something that any individual or group will believe to be a runner without confirmation and substantiation.

Something that works is exactly that! "Something That Works"

I have over three years wrapped up in a design that I consider "viable" but that is all I dare call it. I believe it could very well become a runner but no claims are made.

Ralph

[AB Hammer]

My vote, an actual working wheel or device that can be displayed.

[jim_mich]

Let me put this very clearly...

Which comes first?
What MUST you have FIRST ??

• An actual working model
• An idea or concept.

So, how do you build "an actual working model" BEFORE you find "an idea or concept" ?
You don't. You can't.
First you must find something (a concept or principle) that works (to produce PM).
Only after that can you build a functioning (working) wheel.

I too am still waiting for my desk top model!

I never promised you a model.

[ovyyus]

So, how do you build "an actual working model" BEFORE you find "an idea or concept" ?

More JM deception. Why would you falsely claim to be building small demonstration models before first having an actual working wheel? Because you needed something from me and that was the only way you could get it.

[cloud camper]

Some might be interested to hear what an actual inventor has to say as opposed to a wannabe:

"I speak without exaggeration when I say that I have constructed 3000 different theories in connection with electric light, each one of them reasonable and apparently likely to be true.

Yet in only two cases did my experiments prove the truth of my theory" --Thomas Edison

For those still having trouble with this, an idea or concept does not equal "Something that Works" until it actually "works".

[jim_mich]

Why would you falsely claim to be building small demonstration models before first having an actual working wheel?

Bill, you lie. I never falsely claimed anything. The first step was never to have an actual working wheel. The first step is and always has been to first find something that works. Right there is your misunderstanding that got you into trouble. You must find something that works to produce PM BEFORE you can build a working wheel. And if you don't have the smarts to recognize if a concept or plan will actually work or not, then you don't know whether you have found something that works until after you build it.

I can't make this any clearer.

Which comes first?
What MUST you have FIRST ??

• An actual working model
• An idea or concept.

So, how do you build "an actual working model" BEFORE you find "an idea or concept" ?
You don't. You can't.
First you must find something (a concept or principle) that works (to produce PM).

How you determine if an idea or concept actually works is up to you. But whatever method you use, it MUST be proof that it works to produce PM.