A Perpetual Motion device

[ME]

I don't think it's a ramp-pump.

When you look at this video where they (I guess) try to show how deep the inlet goes into the tank then I suspect Mariotte bottled this principle first..

[WaltzCee]

Marchello,

That bears a striking resemblance to something I saw a while ago some think was invented by Adam, the first Man. To this very day they call it the Man-o-meter in honor of him.

[ME]

It would be nice if there was an outflow.
How would one otherwise benefit from such construction in between moments of deception?

Mariotte made the outflow pressure constant, it doesn't make sense to measure some static pressure constantly.
Not impressed by Adam the Man

[Tarsier79]

ME, do the google translate on the comments. This one isn't a ram pump. I agree with you, they could do the demonstration using the principle of the Marriotte bottle.

[ME]

Ah yes thanks Tarsier for pointing that out (you told us earlier). I thought I had a more suitable explanation for all, but probably there are multiple.

All this guessing makes me ramble:

(begin ramble)

Some valve-action is shown here: first movie link @ 4:15.
Somehow (as often with newly introduced "perpetuals") it lacks a complete picture even though that pipe looks as blue as those earlier plumbings.
We may or may-not stitch this information together (so it may or may not belong to the same set-up).
As it occurs in a single video, the editor thinks it may (and is). All other ways in trying to make some sense out of it tells it's better when we do not (and is not).

When you skip back to 3:00 there's a picture showing a similar set-up as the movie I revered to...
It's as similar as the second movie as provided in this thread.

Are they all "similar" enough ?... I don't know. Perhaps as similar as many other videos... But that's an equal 'opinion' as probably found when translating Youtube-comments, and based on our own imagined believe system. Meaning: It's a bit weird to get the information out of those comments instead of extracting it from the "source"-video.

So in any case, whichever explanation fits whichever video best, the topics PDF is definitely missing some crucial components.

You are overlooking the simple things here. your mind is too clouded to see it

If one does not pay full attention then the mind stitches whatever it wants however it wants. It takes serious effort to avoid involuntary stitching, and thus determine if one cloud is better than some other cloud or one sky is more clear than some other sky.. :-/
Clouding the provided information with "simple things" while they are incomplete does not help.

With or without some cloud a "perpetual motion" machine should theoretically be one of the simplest things to judge: it either works, or it doesn't. Despite this theory: it's gets cloudy anyway.

(end ramble)

Youtube collateral (what other people rambled)

Please allow me to introduce more ...
If you want to increase the water pressure.. Just add water tank in the lower tank first saw it..
We will have a strong suction force.. And it's consistent.

If we remove the tank 200 liters make a third layer of water in a tank top and then emptying
the tank bottom suction will be enough to pull water up from wells on it, but the tank top to withstand vacuum.
Prof. too much
If a single tank of water will not be enough to create a strong vacuum is enough, I think.


At first I thought it was done, but do not force me to do it, siphon systems,
but check back with higher water intake hose, using a single thread.
The air will flow downstream from the tank into the water in the tank is gradually depleted.
Then the water will not flow. Try it Polar models of water bottles on the list.
I do not believe it to look at me. Water pipes made out more than it was then.
If the water out over the water to retrieve it does not flow over 100%.

King Vulture fraud Told beforehand that this
To put an end to pipe water to lower the water level of the water sucked out. Water will flow through
But if the water pipes laid out above the water level, the water sucked out.
When the water tank runs out, everything stopped there. In summary, it is This siphon
The flow of water into the black than offset higher.
However, people often misunderstand that can be used to pump water from a canal.
The low Use a high


Continue to go up, is pumped into the tank to another tank on the one before, so at the same level.
Makes the water from the tank first. Along the pipe connecting the tank to the other.
Go as far as you want To "set a tank to tank to get off the ground.
In order to remove the water from the tank to be used with the pipe valve closing down conversion in each tank to /.


We prove That does not work .. I really pity people do actually find it does not work here.
Emphasizes that it does not work. That people do Posted it. When the tank runs out of water when it was stopped.

[honza]

Thinking about my experiment there is one aspect which is clearly not covered by it.
The desirable effect could be caused by some sort of oscillation (water dynamic) between the outlet leg and the inlet leg, which would require certain volume / size ratios.
In such a case my experiment would not prove anything because making the setup substantially smaller distorts the ratios.

My experiment is only valid for static equilibriums!

So in order to verify it fully perhaps the full size setup needs to be build.

[Tarsier79]

Honza. If it is a resonance thing, there will be specific measuted chambers etc. Scaling it up will just make more back pressure

[Art]

I spent a very entertaining summer about 8 years ago trying to interpret some of the MTs involving fluids after I got John Collins' publication of Maschinen Tractate .

One of the MT's that inspired quite a few experiments was MT 117

Basically it seems to be suggesting the use of a 'principle' similar to what gurangax has suggested in this thread , ie where the gravitational force exerted on the water in the reservoir(s) appear to be utilised in some way to allow a syphon to discharge through its outlet at a higher level than the input .

Its a very attractive idea , but until you actually try and construct the device capable of doing that , intuition falsly tells you it shouldn't be a problem ! But false or not , it was time well spent .

Thats when I really learned a little about atmospheric pressure and its relationship to gravitational potential energy .

My conclusions were that a mass drops downwards because the force it is experiencing is increasing as the mass moves downwards . Otherwise the mass does not experience force in the "downward "direction.

The "potental energy " of a weight at different heights is the difference in force experienced by the mass over the two positions measured. I found it much easier to think about the situation by getting rid of the "energy" concept and thinking in terms of force only . The force a weight experiences at a higher height is actually LESS than the force experienced at the lower height.
There is an increase of force on the mass at the lower height - Not "a loss of energy" as I had previously been in the habit of thinking of it : )

Atmospheric pressure , and buoyancy , is a lot easier to understand when you realise that "pressure" (atmospheric pressure and buoyancy pressure) is the mechanism used by nature to equalise the gravitational force exerted on masses.

So unless you can introduce another force (eg the force of a moving mass - momentum or KE) then water will not flow up a force gradient .

Ram pumps use the force of moving water effectively , but there may be other methods (Honza's Oscillations & Tarsiers Resonances )of introducing this force into a system that doesn't require moving parts ,(variations of that annoying "water hammer" effect you get when you quickly stop the flow of water in a pipe - which is how the Ram pump basically operates) .

I hope to test a system after Xmas sometime using this force by means of the Venturi effect - When I finish up my next wheel experiment on the go at the moment that is , and when the weather here is just a little bit warmer - because this experiment will need a head of water about 10 metres high - so accidental showering will be on the cards !

[helloha]

??? isn't this that Aquarium water siphon pump ???

By shortening the pipe line, and lengthen out the water outlet, we get a big-sized water siphon pump.

[helloha]

Use one plastic bottle, 3 drinking straws, .... less than half an hour..., to build it.

Yep, it's a simple aquarium water siphon pump :)

One Advice: playing with water is messy, test it while taking a bath

[ME]

Yes, but (as far as I understand) it should have worked the other way around.

I tested it too:
Didn't have straws, so I took some old telephone wire and got rid of its guts. Pulled them through some drilled holes in a lid of a glass jar, then secured by glue.
The amount of water remained constant while siphoning from high to low, I could even get it to fountain inside the container which was above the input water level.

[Art]

Just tested my Venturi 'valve' with a water head of 1.8 Metres and it worked reasonably well .

This means I don't have to go climbing on anything to get to 10 metres to get the water pressure I thought I would need to give me the Venturi effect .

At 1.8 metres the pressure from the water drop in a common 9 mm water hose was enough when put through the Venturi to lift itself and twice its volume of additional water by about 100mm .
ie for every litre of water flowing through the hose I got 3 litres (approx) total water at 1800mm - 100mm = 1700mm .

Next step is to incorporate the venturi into a sealed reservoir to supply the two litres by way of a seperate syphon system which should be operating under a reduced pressure due to feedback from the venturi (hopefully).

That will have to wait till after Christmas though. I'm off now for a week because my grandkids need me to play with their Christmas presents - hope it's some neat stuff this year that you don't have to be a computer engineer to figure out.

Have a good Christmas everybody , - don't waste too many brain cells drinking cheap spirits , - go for the expensive stuff ! - its only once a year and the people that produce it don't even admit that it kills brain cells - so it's their fault if it happens. And that's why they charge more for it . And besides the remaining brain cells won't be stressed by guilt feelings ! : )

[Tarsier79]

Art. That sounds like OU to me. Can you draw a diagram of your setup, or photo? I want to make sure it is what I am thinking.

You drop 1L 1800mm, and it lifts 3L from the bottom (2L+ orig 1L) up 1700mm? And we are speaking only vertical distance? If so, can you double check your calcs and measurements?

[Art]

Sorry Tarsier what I meant was , from the height the 3 litres was raised to , to the height of where the water is being syphoned from is still 1700 mm .

The three litres is only being raised 100 mm from the zero level .

I wish it was the other way ( ie raising it 1700 mm ) , I'd be skipping !

I'll post a diagram of it when I do the second part of the experiment when I get back hopefully.
If my computer skills were a bit better I could do a quick diagram now, but unfortunately the're not and I've got to go in a couple of hours for a week down the coast where I don't have convenient access to a computer .

So I'll try and explain it with a bit more detail :-

What I have just done is a very preliminary test of the venturi valve . It consisted of taking water from a tank through a length of hose to a bucket full of water . The level of the water in the bucket is 1800mm below the level of water in the tank. The water from the tank was run through the Venturi Pump/Tube which was placed in the bucket . The outlet from the venturi was at 100 mm above the level of the Bucket water.The water flowing from the tank through the venturi entrains the water from the bucket and exits through the venturi outlet which is 100mm above the level of the water in the bucket and from there into another container .

For each volume of water from the tank used , the bucket water contributes 2 volumes . To hit Unity I have to get that water up 1800mm .

As I see it I'm utilising the kinetic energy of the falling tank water to do work on the bucket water , so the venturi is a 'Go' , - I should be able to convert that work to a pressure difference which I might be able to feed back to the syphon to (hopefully) increase the flow which will increase the pressure difference which will increase the flow ....etc

I suspect that the best outcome will probably be (because Perpetual Motion could very well be impossible) that it would be similar to a ram pump , where it might be possible to get the water above 1800mm (in this situation) but not all of it . Like a ram pump you may have to leave a lot of the water at a lower level and just be happy getting some of it above it's starting height !.

It would be nice though to shock the scientific community by getting water (all of it) to run uphill ! : )

[helloha]

I could even get it to fountain inside the container which was above the input water level.

Didn't know it can do that fountain effect, took me some time before I figure what you mean :)