The so called clues, which supposedly come from Bessler

[ovaron]

I guess some of the so-called clues from Besler do not really correspond to what he really said. All the "clues" should be rechecked.

Weights acted in pairs
- Bessler
I can't find such a statement.

What Bessler said is:

Nemlich, ein Kunstwerk muß sich treiben
Von vielen sondern Stücken Blei;
Der sind nun immer zwei und zwei;
Nimmt ein Ding äußerlich die Stelle,
So Fährt das andre an die Welle;
Apologia part I page (81)

There are NOW (in the bidirectional wheel?) always two and two pieces of lead.
That does not necessarily mean that they act in pairs. Is there an other place where he states that the weights acted in pairs?



Weights gained force from their own swinging.
- Bessler

I think that's a wrong translation of the german word "Schwung".
If I understand the english word "swinging" correct (my native tongue is german), swinging means a movement back and forth. That would be the german "Schwingen". The german "Schwung" is the english "momentum".

Or is there a mention from Bessler in an other document to the german "Schwingen"?



Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another.
- Bessler
I can't find this statement


Weights applied force at right angles to the axis.
- Bessler
Where did Bessler said that?


Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.
- Bessler

In which document he stated that?



The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter.
- Bessler

Bessler said exact the opposite.

Wenn neben ein Rad von zwölf Ellen NB.
Ich ein sechs Ellig’s wolte stellen,
So solte (wenn ich’s wolte thun),
Das klein’re Werk in einem Nun
Weit mehr Gewalt, Force und Gaben
Als wie das grosse Kunst-Werk haben;
Apologia part II page (70)

[justsomeone]

Welcome to the forum Ovaron.

[AB Hammer]

Greetings ovaron

Here is the online translations of the German you quoted from. But from my understanding is not accurate due to Bessler wrote in old German. I am not a translator so I have to depend on other translators.

Namely, a work of art has to take place
Of many but pieces of lead;
They are always two and two;
If a thing externally takes the place,
Thus the other moves to the wave;

When next to a wheel of twelve cubits NB.
I set a six Ellig's wolte,
Thus should (if I will)
The little work in a Nun
Far more violence, force and gifts
As like the great art work

[ovaron]

@ AB Hammer

Thanks for the answer. My native tongue is german. Maybe my english is not good enough to understand everything correctly, but I got the impression, that most of Besslers clues are not correctly translated into english or are conclusions from what he said (what need not to be wrong)

It might be helpful to quote the original German quotations for the clues. Perhaps you can draw quite different conclusions from the quotations. Just an idea....

[Stewart]

Hi Ovaron

The clues you've quoted are not even direct quotes, but more the site author's paraphrased interpretations. I've spent years pointing out inaccuracies in quotes and translations on this site, and have addressed all the issues you have raised at one point or another.

Weights acted in pairs
You are correct that the "pairs" clue has come from the line in AP that says "zwei und zwei". In English that translates as 'two and two', 'by twos', 'in twos', 'in pairs'. So although not a word-for-word translation, 'pairs' could be considered a valid interpretation, however as you say, "acted in pairs" is not a direct Bessler quote.

Weights gained force from their own swinging.
That is again not a direct quote of Bessler, and your interpretation is the correct one as I've pointed out before: Bessler isn't talking here of an oscillation.

Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another.
I also can't remember the source of that one, although again it's probably not a direct quote but paraphrased.

Weights applied force at right angles to the axis.
Again, not a direct quote. I assume it's an interpretation of a part of the description of the wheel in DT.

Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested.
Again, not a direct quote. The only thing I can think of as to where that might have come from is that Wolff thought he heard the sound of a spring when Bessler removed/replaced weights in the wheel during translocation.

The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter.
Again, not a direct quote, but paraphrasing descriptions of the wheel from GB, AP or DT.
There are various bits of information that would allow us to believe the wheel increased in power with an increase in diameter (it makes sense as well). The quote given about being able to make a smaller diameter wheel more powerful than a bigger diameter wheel could refer to the ability to increase the power by adding multiple mechanisms/weights along the axle, i.e. increasing the thickness rather than diameter. For Bessler's demonstration purposes, the thinest most powerful wheel was desirable to rule out there being a man/animal inside for example.

All the best
Stewart

[WaltzCee]

I guess some of the so-called clues from Besler do not really correspond to what he really said. All the "clues" should be rechecked.

rocky posted quite a few of the clues here:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 194#100194

[helloha]

If I arrange to have just one cross-bar in my machine, it revolves very slowly, just as it can hardly turn itself at all, but when I arrange several bars, pulleys and weights, the machine can revolve much faster.

A question.... for the above clue, is the word "pulleys" a correct translation from the original text ?

[ovaron]

A question.... for the above clue, is the word "pulleys" a correct translation from the original text ?

No, it isn't correct.
Bessler spoke of cables (chains, cable puls, ropes) but not of pulleys.

[Fletcher]

It's good to have your opinions ovaron - much appreciated.

[justsomeone]

Lol Fletcher!

[Fletcher]

Well, if you read his posts they come across as considered, thoughtful, and confident, at least to me.

And he is a native German speaker.

This makes his opinions valuable to me.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I think Ovaron is right, it should be "pulls", not pulleys. It finally dawned on me; the Pulls, were wires, ropes, chain, or cables that pulled the sliders back and forth.

I expect it was a light chain, that made the scratching sounds, as it pass over wooden parts, in the first wheel.

If you can ever accept the "Idea" of the sliders, you are half way there.

Sam

[cloud camper]

Hi Sam - I know you are dead set on this slider theory but am sorry to say
that the sliders will never accelerate to where they need to be when they
need to be there due to latency.

That is, the sliders cannot slide until the wheel has turned. So they are already late to the party.

And then they have to accelerate to speed, overcoming friction and inertia, taking more time.

The end result is they will always lag far behind the wheel, never lead it.

You have created a mechanism that requires the wheel to turn before the
sliders slide. What we need is a mechanism so that the sliders slide before the wheel turns.

Totally different deal and why none of these slider ideas work.

This problem has been discussed many times on the forum. Just search for latency.

This is also what Bessler called getting the horse in front of the cart.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Cloud Camper.

Yikes!, how am I going to get out of this? What can I say, you are exactly right. They, the sliders, have to slide over / reset before the wheel turns.You have described the problem perfectly.

This is where the "lifters" come in. The lifter is a step up lever, Bessler gives the ratio of 4 to 1, but 2 to one might be enough.

Why a step up lever? It's just as you said, the slider has to lead the wheel.
It has to move over faster than the wheel is turning. That speed is achieved with a step up lever. The lever, I'm fairly sure is at least a 2 to 1 step up, double acting bell crank mounted close to the center to prevent bottom heaviness. One for each slider and double acting because the sliders are double acting.

Have to take a break---------------

[Sam Peppiatt]

Where was I oh yes, I think two slider will work 90 degrees to each other.

Again you are correct; the lifter has to fall, kick the slider over as Daan said with high speed, then the slider causes the wheel to turn. It's a chicken or egg deal. Please don't ask me which comes first.
Also I think a compression spring will help with the resetting.

This hasn't been tried yet, but think it will work. I should add the long end of the bell crank "pulls" the sliders back and forth.

I know the bell cranks work but the rather massive weights required on the short end of the lever could cause bottom heaviness.

If you have any questions please let me know,

Sam