The so called clues, which supposedly come from Bessler

[cloud camper]

You're still not getting it.

The lifters won't fall either until the wheel turns.

And if the lifters have to move the sliders at high speed, nothing will
move.

You have invented a braking system, not a power system.

Put it in WM2D. You could model it in 10 minutes and find out.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I apologize for my ignorance of the prior art, Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

Sorry,
I'm a big dummy, don't know WM2D. Could you model that for me? I think it would help a lot to understand it.

Start with the slider more or less horizontal; the lifter will fall, pull the slider over, the wheel will turn, then the bell crank falls back the other way, after the wheel turns 180 degrees.

What helps the situation is having two sliders 90 degrees apart. I think with just one it might not work.

If I'm wrong maybe a sim would show me that, but like I say all I have is a file.

Sam

[cloud camper]

Hi Sam, my WM2D license is currently expired sadly but you can get a Student Edition for $25 for a 6 month license. Or is it $50?

If you think you have a hot concept, it's worth it to check it out instead of wasting months or years on an unworkable idea.

You will see in minutes why sliders and lifters don't work. It's all been tried a bazillion times!

[helloha]

Just going back to the previous question http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 699#150699 of the word translation of "pulleys"

I think here is the original german text

Viel Creuze, Züge, und Gewicht

but have to change the Creuze to Kreuze, as the google translate doesn't recognize Creuze

So going through the google translate, it is

Lots of crosses, trains, and weight

which btw "Züge" is also translated to
- trains
- outline
- lineaments
- rifling
- traits

So how come it ends up being "pulleys" ?

[John Collins]

I used some old very, fat German dictionaries one of which suggested, interestingly that our word 'tug' derives from the German 'zug ' or 'zuge'. It they offered pull, pulley, cable pull etc. And about two columns of alternatives.

JC.

[Fletcher]

I remembered Stewart discussing zug (pull) and zuge (pulls) IIRC - and different words for pulleys etc.

So I did a quick forum search (advanced search) - using the Search for Keywords: .. zug , and Search for Author: .. Stewart

Then I went to bottom right corner Return first ______________ characters of posts (selected All available) - then punched Search button at the bottom.

There were in General Discussion 4 detailed posts made by Stewart in reply to others - they are all worth reading carefully - cheers.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/searc ... de=results

[daanopperman]

Hi

Zuge

I would like to suggest someone such for the word " harness " , zuge is something you put onto a horse to tie the horse to the plough , the leather straps on the horse , not the wooden piece that the harness tie to .

Daan

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Cloud Camper,

Yes, wish I could do sim. I have no concept of it. Will just have to try it and see.

It might not work. Only the experiment is meaningful. The lifter weights can cause bottom heaviness as they shift.

Sam

[cloud camper]

OK Sam - but bottom heaviness is not your problem.

It is LATENCY.

You're expecting the wheel to be the prime mover.

The wheel is not the prime mover. The wheel is the final output,
nothing more.

Lock the wheel physically or in your mind so it can't turn.

Now tell me where your mechanism is that moves the lifters
and sliders. You don't have one.

Do you see the problem now?

You need to invent the prime mover, the prime mover moves the lifters and sliders, the lifters and sliders then turn the wheel.

A>B>C

That's putting the horse in front of the cart.

[ovaron]

„Viel Creuze, Züge und Gewicht“

To translate „Züge“ with pulleys or sliders (trains) is in my opinion completely misleading. Bessler refers in an other place to chain.

„ Der Hund auch aus der Hütten kreuch’t,
Doch nur so weit die Kette reich’t.“
(The dog also crawels out of his dog hut,
but only as far as the chain reaches)

For me it's obvious that „Zug, Züge“ (cable) and Kette (chain) refers to the same thing. In my understanding the chain stops the weight (or crossbar with weight) to reach to far. That doesn't exclude sliders, but in my humble opinion its just a method to stop the weight from falling (reaching) to far.

[ME]

For those who would like an alternative view:

Denn wenn ich mache hier bereits
In ein Werck gleichsam nur ein Creuz/
So wird man es ganz langsam sehen
Kaum von sich selber herum drehen;

hingegen/ wenn ich zugericht´t
Viel Creuze/ Züge und Gewicht´/
So kan das Werck viel schneller lauffen/
Wirfft Wagners Rechnung übern Hauffen

Although my German is not that good (clueless about umlauts for example), at least I have a dictionary plus some possible overlap with Dutch.
This is my quick translation:

Then when I would prepare,
some object just alike a cross/
it will be seen [to go] quit slow
and barely able to spin itself around;

In contrast/ when I reasonably [use]
many crosses/ Züge and weights /
That's how this object can run much faster/
Messing-up Wagner's calculations even more

Marchello's Dictionary Services

According to my dictionary in search of "Züge":

NL::Teug = DE::Zug,Schluck = EN::Gulp up, Swallow
NL::Zucht = DE::ein Atem-zug, ein: haugh, ein Windhaugh = EN::breathing, inhalation
NL::Teugel = DE::Zügel = EN::Reins (<-- meant by Daan?)
NL::Trek = DE::Zug = EN: to yank, tug, jerk (and similar derivatives)
NL::Trek, Lust, Honger = DE::Zug, Lust, Hunger = EN::Desire, Lust, Hunger
NL::Trekken/Gezichtstrek = DE::Gezichtszug = EN::Facial feature
NL::Karaktertrek = DE::Charakterzug = EN::character trait
NL::Trein = DE::Zug, Züge = EN::train
NL::Katrol/takel = DE::Flaschenzug, Zugwinde, Zugrolle, Trieze = EN::Pulley, tackle

What Stewart thinks: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... =zug#48996

What I personally think of it

I think a "train" in Bessler's case only makes sense in a 'coupled' or 'successive' way, like: a train of thoughts; or "train" as in "training" as in repetition.
Perhaps interesting to ponder: A train is the combined occurrence of coupled wagons where one pulls the rest: So it should at least come in one pair of wagons.
So "Züge" could be "pull", it could be "pulley", it could be one cross(-bar) pulling some other cross(-bar).

Whatever one makes of it, I think Bessler's text just shows a singular mechanism should be able to work on itself, albeit poorly.
Hence many construction/cross(bars) in succession (at spaced out locations) with as many stacked weights as wanted or needed - simply works better: The cumulative nature of Torque.

So with this it seems to me that "cross(bars)", "pulleys" and even "Wagner" are not the most important messages (perhaps they still are in some other sense).
And I currently think the most interesting part is: DE::"Das kan viel schneller" - EN::"It can go much faster".
Because the indication of Torque and Weight and More things (crossbars) should naturally lead to a description indicating More "Power" and not More "Speed" per se (as Bessler did anyway), so apparently "speed" it is.
- We could infer that smoothness of operation (coming from the successive actions of properly aligned multiple mechanisms) automatically leads to more power, or the shorter message: Speed implies Power.


Leftover distractions:

NL::Fles = DE::Flasche = EN::Bottle, flask (from "flaschenzug": I think not 'flash' related, if one wondered, unless containing quicksilver(?) - to shows we can get distracted quit easily - I'm fairly sure "Flasche" is the name of the block containing the rollers)
NL::Polonaise = DE::Polonaise = EN::a train of people (please don't, and avoid !)

[Sam Peppiatt]

Cloud Camper. I agree with part of what you are saying. I see the sliders as the prime mover. If they can be repeatedly reset the wheel will turn, I can set there and do it.

So, a mechanism, as you suggested, must be invented to do that. The lifter is that mechanism. I.E., the bell crank. It's as simple as that.

The bell crank works; except I had it ass backwards. I was trying to lift four pounds with one pound. Consequently it was too slow, way to slow. The wheel, (with me turning it), was leading the sliders, and it should be just the other way around.

That's why it is imperative that the lever / bell crank have a step up ratio of at least 2 to 1 so that the slider(s) reset fast enough to lead the wheel.

The long end of the bell crank is vertical and pulls the slider back and forth with wires. The short end of the crank is horizontal with a very big weight on the end of it. Mounted close to the center of the wheel. When the slider is anywhere near horizontal the weight falls down, pulls the slider over causing the wheel to turn, and the cycle repeats, over and over,( maybe).

Does any of it make sense, Cloud Camper?

Sam

[cloud camper]

Ugh - sorry, no.

Lock the wheel physically or in your mind so it can't turn.

Now tell me how the lifters and sliders are going to move.

Telekinesis? Wishful thinking? Mr Hand?

They won't move by themselves!

[Sam Peppiatt]

Ok, here goes. The wheel is locked so that it can't turn. The slider is horizontal and all the way to the left, 3 1/2 inches. The bell crank, ( a 90 degree lever), is mounted at or near the center of the wheel with a big weight on the short end of the lever which is more or less horizontal.

The long end of the bell crank is vertical and for CW operation is pointing down. Pulls / wires are fastened to the long end of the lever to each end of the slider. The heavy weight, 7 lbs on the short end of the lever rotates downward, about one inch. The long end of the bell crank with the wire pulls the slider over to the right hand side of the wheel 2 or three inches or more depending on the leverage; over balancing the wheel, (to the right).

If unlocked it will turn. Does that help? Sam