Another bothersome one.

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We'd like to apologize to nicbordeaux for not having realized he is a genious.

Poll ended at Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:05 pm

We'd like to apologize to nicbordeaux for not having realized he is a genious.
3
33%
nicbordeaux is as clueless as everybody else here.
6
67%
 
Total votes: 9

nicbordeaux
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Another bothersome one.

Post by nicbordeaux »

In the attached sketch, an arm, of a pendulum type, and a Wheel, with a weight (red).

The Wheel is obviously "OB"

Rotating the Wheel from "keel point" to the 3 o' clock position will throw the arm the other way, a bit. This can be explained away by equations, acts of God, or common sense : "That's the way it is".

The question I have is : does the Wheel have to travel further to get to "3" because of the arm moving away and upwards, does it travel less, or does it travel exactly the same distance in terms of degrees of an arc ? Or in terms of linear distance if the Wheel is driven from 6 to 3 by means of a string wrapped around it, said string carrying a weight on the free end.

Is exactly same amount of force involved and if so, is that force a constant, or does the required force change as events occur, so that more, or less, force is required at different points in the rotation as the arm moves out/the weight around ?

To all the savvy people, this may sound very dumb. I can answer that I build a load of stuff, and am now trying to work out exactly why something I didn't really expect to happen, well, happens.

Ta.

Edit: The way I run things at the moment, the arm is locked in position, the Wheel is rotated 1/4 turn and locked, then the arm is released, whereupon it takes up it's position as dictated by all that center of mass stuff. This in itself is vaguely interesting since there is a free ride of sorts, eg movement which happens at no expense. (After posting that last statement, I will be in hiding).

As to the GPE, it's the same, the arm moves the Wheel up (or vv), therefore the OB weight for 90° rotation or 1/4 turn locked loses a little bit of height, which is compensated for by the height gain made by the arm and Wheel. No gain, no loss.
Which seems to imply that in the force-time-distance equation(s) , I'm extracting force (there can be no movement without force) whilst not expending in any way the potential energy the system has had put into it, since GPE is dictated for a given mass by COM.

Apart from GPE, there is the initial input required to rotate the Wheel. As far as I can make out, there is no loss of energy here, it is in no way expended, and still available. Maybe not through exactly the same release path, but it is not altered.

The way I show the energy is by attaching a small weight on a line to the bottom of the arm. The line runs from the arm to a little pulley Wheel, and the weight hangs clear of the ground. You see the weight rise as the whole contraption moves in an arc as COM position is found. The bigger the weight, the less height gained, but cutting the line at the point of maximum rise and holding the weight retains that "gain", and the assembly then reaches whatever it will, which is the same as what it would have without the weight. The variable here is Time, not Distance. There are two other simple ways of showing this action, one involves a spring, the other a flexible rod.
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by nicbordeaux »

No takers ?

Not a problem. I will now look into transmuting gold into lead. That may sound stupid. Until you realize there is more money to be made by shorting the heck out of the lead market than in selling vast amounts of gold.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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Post by AB Hammer »

Hi nicbordeauz

I think you needed to give us more options in the pole.

Like - nicbordeauz has something, but not sure what is next.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

That's a decent point Alan. Are you sure that there should be something next ? Meaning that the fundamental principle is described, it can go in any way from there. I use the "gain" for initial acceleration of a swing arm, pendulum DP, pendululm Wheel, call it what you will, but other builds are perfectly possible. Even something as simple as a slightly modified Atwoods would be fine.

Once the raise of a weight without any overall expenditure of input is shown , well... that is a decent step in the right direction.

What I really need is someone to show me where I am wrong. Because I can't possibly be right, it's against the law :-)
Last edited by nicbordeaux on Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by daanopperman »

Hi nic ,

If you are asking if the wheel has to rotate more than 90 deg for the red dot to reach 3 , yes , it has to rotate more than 90 deg , by almost the same deg as what the pend. shaft has rotated from 6 to rest position .
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Thanks, that is what I was asking, in part. So we can start with :if the pendulum shaft is locked into position vertical before the Wheel with OB weight (red dot) is revolved to 3, the travel needed will be strictly 90°, therefore when the Wheel is also fixed in the 3 position, there is energy stored equivalent to the difference between the the two situations, this one and the normal scenario which you have confirmed.

Or to put it simply, the mass which is OB weight, wheel and pendulum arm is pushing with a measurable and predictable force against whatever device is restraining the arm. There is strain in the restraint mech and there is potential "energy of position" which can be made available by unlatching the arm, for want of a better term, whereupon the whole contraption moves in arc by a known number of degrees, and does work in the process. No loss of COM. Work at the expense of time or distance, or both. Free ride.

My device uses this principle. To further complicate things, when the locked OB Wheel and arm reaches it's new position , the arm is locked again, and the Wheel turned another 90°, so that the OB weight is much nearer 12. The total input has been over 180°. At no cost other than that, there is an arm raised a number of degrees, with a OB Wheel at position "x".

This is more than enough to get a rotation of the OB Wheel upon release of arm and Wheel all the way to 12 and back up to 9, eg more than 360 ° . That is the natural behavior of the device. If "tuned", eg weights and lengths, diameter all adjusted for that purpose.

The problem I guess most people will have is "how do you account for the energy needed to do all this latching or stopping of parts at various points in the cycle". Correct ?
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by nicbordeaux »

Here is a vid which shows what happens when the different components of the system are released simultaneously from a position as described above. In some of these runs, mags have been used, in others not. The only purpose of a magnet would be to grab and get a tenuous hold on things until a "critical" position is attained : too much stress or force acting on the magnetic catch so that the mags lose hold. I prefer the mechanical devices to the mags.

There, that must make me a good man, I've shown you a whole load of stuff. Not only that, I've attempted to explain it in easy installments :-)

https://youtu.be/uKyh8gx9Iz0

EDIT : this is not, repeat NOT a working device, a claim to one, overunity, zero point nonesense or hocus pocus. The vid is purely to illustrate a point about release positions without any attempt at accounting for energy put into the system or expended by it.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by Art »

Pretty cool Nic . !

More than half of the "equal and opposite reaction momentum" is going anticlockwise as a result of the absorption of some of the reaction by the pendulum .

Is it possible to recover and apply the other part of the reaction also in an anticlockwise manner ?

We need another resident genius here !

Where's Grimer ?
Have had the solution to Bessler's Wheel approximately monthly for over 30 years ! But next month is "The One" !
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by Tarsier79 »

Nic. If I understand correctly, you have a repelling magnet at the start of the cycle, pushing between the pendulum arm and where the weight is on the wheel? I am still surprised you get more than 1 rotation.
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by nicbordeaux »

The magnets are there for maintaining things in position. A position achieved by proceeding as described in the posts above. IOW, they are not meant to be part of the drive when properly adjusted, eg just enough distance apart to "grab" each other , then let go when the Wheel is released and force breaks the hold.

The setup will run "better" without those poorly adjusted mags. More than 360° is solely dependant on the arm and Wheel being released when the "OB" weight is near 1 or 2 , or 10 or 11 , and the arm inclined slightly. Take any DP, raise the "bottom" arm vertical, incline the "top" arm and it will fly about like a bat out of hell. Not sure it's the correct term, but I'd call that energy of relative positions.

The way those magnets are set is indeed repel, but "attract" will also work. You'll still get more than 1 rotation. The dynamics change, that's all.

There is no free energy there, especially as the Wheel reached release position by the operator pushing it intro place. Still, if anybody wants to play with magnets, here's the setup:

The little wood plate on the arm has a smallish supermag glued into it. The 10 mm bolt protuding from the metal backplate has a similar mag glued to it. This makes for micro adjustment of the distance between the magnets. Again, in that vid, the adjustment is very coarse, too much "stiction".

Overcoming that magnetic repel to get the Wheel and arm into position requires Force. Difficult to measure, and a setup open to all sorts of criticism if claimed to be "working device". Still, you can be really sneaky and move the Wheel into position from the other direction ;-)

I have a private forum with 3 members. This stuff has been up there for quite some time, it was vaguely discussed, since then , nada. I've been busy with other things than "PM" , and I think the others too. So as needed, détails of the build can be published here.

On the understanding that this is open source. That it is not a "Free Energy" device or any other such hocus pocus.

A long post. To end it off, there is another vid on the open forum which got no answers. Same device, no mags, and a steel rod of about 100 grams being raised. I count each cm of rise as work done (yep, I should be taking into account the angular travel which means less actual vertical rise) because it is a fresh lift each time, the mass raised is not contributing to pendulum drive except as a change in "MoI" on one stroke. Release conditions are Wheel weight at 12, no pre-tension on sliding rod line, arm vetical. Eventually, this needs to be fed back to the Wheel, either as a constant, or via acumulated energy.

EDIT: In "theory", the sum total of lifted mass as grams over mm is greater than the the same expression of force required to get the Wheel to start position. This does not imply a real world working device even if I am not mistaken, because feeding that lifted mass back to the Wheel or arm involves large mechanical losses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDFQ2wzU548
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by ME »

Take any DP, raise the "bottom" arm vertical, incline the "top" arm and it will fly about like a bat out of hell. Not sure it's the correct term, but I'd call that energy of relative positions.
That chaotic moment a [double pendulum] starts to do that it reminds me of nunchucku's and [Bruce Lee] every single time... as advised try to [be water].
Tarsier79 wrote: I am still surprised you get more than 1 rotation.
The wheel performs a sort of whip-effect on the weight when it's at the bottom. Both the wheel as the pendulum as the weight have their maximum velocity when they first meet the 6 o'clock position. The pendulum then pushes against the inertia of the weight.

After one rotation (weight at the top) the pendulum has also stopped its swing.
I'm still surprised the pendulum swings to the left when it initiates the second rotation.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Not sure which cycle or point you are referring to, ME. What is certain is that the proportions need to be very precise to get good performance, and the bearings very, very good. Here is some build data https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPNXuK ... e=youtu.be

Other good combinations lead to different behavior. A telecopic or adjustable arm is good, but it leads to people screaming (sometimes rightly so) about not knowing where the CoM is.
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by ME »

eeh... but to which "cycle or point" are you referring? A simple, yet complex question. :-)
Let me try to "point" it out with time (for [this video]:
  • 0:10 The wheel performs a sort of whip-effect.. when it's at the bottom.
    0:15 After one rotation (weight at the top) the pendulum has also stopped its swing.
    0:17 I'm still surprised the pendulum swings to the left when it initiates the second rotation.
A telecopic or adjustable arm is good, but it leads to people screaming (sometimes rightly so) about not knowing where the CoM is.
Perhaps that answers it.
Marchello E.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

That is the magnets on repel without the arm being in the same position as start of cycle. By the looks of it. Haven't played to much with mags because of this sort of thing, too complex to replicate the build even if you do work something out with magnetics.

Maybe I should have avoided publishing that vid with the magnets, it's distracting ... The main point is the build up of ideal CoM/position of components at no extra expense. Much earlier in the thread. When you can position your arm and Wheel as required, you have a guaranteed full turn for the input normally required for 3/4 of a turn..
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re: Another bothersome one.

Post by nicbordeaux »

Oh dear , looks like I posted too much stuff with wheels flying about and arms flailing. The initial point of this thread was, and still is, for a device as shown (OB Wheel on swing arm), what I posted, and will now post again (pics or vid to follow when I get a moment):

"The way I run things at the moment, the arm is locked in position, the Wheel is rotated 1/4 turn and locked, then the arm is released, whereupon it takes up it's position as dictated by all that center of mass stuff. This in itself is vaguely interesting since there is a free ride of sorts, eg movement which happens at no expense. (After posting that last statement, I will be in hiding).

As to the GPE, it's the same, the arm moves the Wheel up (or vv), therefore the OB weight for 90° rotation or 1/4 turn locked loses a little bit of height, which is compensated for by the height gain made by the arm and Wheel. No gain, no loss.
Which seems to imply that in the force-time-distance equation(s) , I'm extracting force (there can be no movement without force) whilst not expending in any way the potential energy the system has had put into it, since GPE is dictated for a given mass by COM.

Apart from GPE, there is the initial input required to rotate the Wheel. As far as I can make out, there is no loss of energy here, it is in no way expended, and still available. Maybe not through exactly the same release path, but it is not altered.

The way I show the energy is by attaching a small weight on a line to the bottom of the arm. The line runs from the arm to a little pulley Wheel, and the weight hangs clear of the ground. You see the weight rise as the whole contraption moves in an arc as COM position is found. The bigger the weight, the less height gained, but cutting the line at the point of maximum rise and holding the weight retains that "gain", and the assembly then reaches whatever it will, which is the same as what it would have without the weight. The variable here is Time, not Distance. "

Thence, a raise of a weight with no energy expenditure. Anything wrong here ?
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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