Before we toss out Frank Edwards completely ... just some housekeeping.
JC wrote:Also Frank Edwards account contains fictitious details which are easily proven wrong and he too should be removed from your references.
I'd like to know why it can easily be proved wrong John ?
Frank Edwards comments about Karl describing the inner wheel workings always seemed to me to be quite precise. More so it seems to me than just some made-up whimsical speculation by him to pad his book and make sales.
Just where did he supposedly get his information ? And can his source be corroborated if he gave one ?
The fact that Kar had a contract with Bessler to view the internal workings of the machine, does not gel, in my opinion with Edwards, account of Karl rushing home to make a note of what he had seen, and why would he do that anyway knowing that he could never share the information until Bessler had sold his wheel.
Karl described the machine as very simple and a carpenter's apprentice could memorise and copy what he has seen, in which case I'm sure Karl would not have had to make notes on how it worked
Do not forget that Karl was a man of strong principles and would not have revealed what he had seen to anyone else as long as Bessler's wheel remained unsold.
As for Edwards sources, I suspect he used R.Gould's account which is the only one which gives any detail about Bessler, but obviously does not give that piece of description of the supposed internal workings of the wheel. Given the OCD component of Gould's character, if there were any other sources of information he would surely have found them, and quoted from them.
Just for curiosity's sake, I wonder who he might have shared such information with. Possibly the two ladies with whom he had a relationship? Highly doubtful, in my opinion. His son's? Possibly, but they never showed any interest in Bessler's wheel, nor in the scientific research which interested Karl so much.
I remain convinced that Edwards made up that description of how hiswheel worked to spice up his account of the legend.
Frank Allyn Edwards (August 4, 1908 – June 23, 1967) was an American writer and broadcaster, and one of the pioneers in radio. He hosted a radio show broadcast across the United States in the 1940s and 1950s. Late in his life, he became additionally well known for a series of popular books about UFOs, psychics and other phenomena
I agree with John, that without any source reference we should consider the information to be suspect. It doesn't sound like anyone has found any source document yet that can back up that information. Fletcher is right to question however whether it can be disproved though. I'm not sure we can disprove it when we don't know the source of the information. I personally have chosen to ignore any information not backed up by source material from Bessler's time.
As John and Fletcher say: where could this information have come from? It would have to have been written down somewhere either by Karl himself or someone closely associated with him. The most likely place to look I guess would be Karl's diaries, other court documents or any writings from those people that John mentions. I guess we'll just have to keep looking.
Rocky wrote:Little Book Metaphors
Little Book in Apologia Poetica (AP) has text metaphor clues.
I'd just like to clear this up again...
When Bessler says:
Die ja aufs fragen eyfrig seyn/
Die fragen dieses Büchelein. &c.
who indeed is keen to question,
question this booklet. &c.
The "booklet" or "little book" referred to by Bessler is the whole of AP itself. AP is a small pocket book with dimensions of about 10cm x 17cm (4" x 6.5"). Bessler refers to AP as "this booklet" a number of times in AP, including in the dedication: "Dedicirt diß Büchelein/" (this booklet is dedicated,).
The "metaphors" section is found in chapter 46 of AP (pages 88-90). Can we get into the habit of referring to that passage as "chapter 46 of AP" or the "metaphors in chapter 46 of AP" (or variations thereof) please?
Rocky wrote:Apologia Poetica Little Book Metaphor Clues of Machine Parts
I don't think it should be stated that the "metaphors" are all "clues of machine parts". Unless it can be proved for certain, that's just one possibility. We should keep an open mind to the inclusion of that passage.
Let me back up, I should not have implied that all clues are right. But a couple of things are right. The sliders are the best way to over balance a wheel, because as the MA of the weight increases on the down side the MA of the weight on the up side decreases. Only two are needed, 90 degrees to each other.
Lifters are required to reset the slides for the wheel to turn. Rocky mentioned a bell crank. The lifter must be a double acting bell crank.
This brings up another clue, Pulls / Pulleys. Pulls is right not pulleys. The bell crank "pulls" the sliders back and forth with FAHREN fast motion, as you explained to me. This is the key to the whole thing. How to get fast motion?
I just realized yesterday, (all the lights came on), the bell crank, or lifter, has a step up ratio, possibly 4 to 1. A very heavy weight on the short end of the lever falls a short distance. Close to the center of the wheel. Then the long end of the bell crank, pulls the slider over.
With Fahren!!! How else would you get fast motion? I'll let you know if I'm right, Sam
1 Cross Bar - Bessler state it just turns
2 Cross Bar - Your recommendation with a two hit requirement
3 Cross Bar - Fits the tree motif in Bessler's Clues
4 Cross Bar - This would create 8 hits per rotation.
Suggestion
3 Cross Bars are where interesting things start to happen.
4 Cross Bars - The extra Bar is for more power.
Bessler pack the components tight. One side nudge and conflict would happen with those Cross Bars.
I figure that if Bessler really wanted anyone to know how his wheel worked,he would have left the plans with a relative at some point before his death.He lived to be very old for a man at that time,and I'm sure he knew he was bucking the odds.I put a lot of stock in the eye-witness reports,as those would seem to be the least likely to be purposely misleading.If I was trying to hide something,I might tell the people looking to look where it was not. 300 plus years later and we're still not finding it where Bessler told us to look.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
Thanks for responding, I really appreciate it. To start off with; do we agree that the cross bars are sliders, that they are double acting and the best way to over balance a wheel? I'm sorry to say but this is the only way. If you can't get to here you will never figure it out.
Of coarse the more sliders the better. I doubt it will run on just one. I see two as a minimum. 90 degrees apart, "The Cross". Two double acting sliders give four thumps, or 4 power pulses per revolution and will run nicely. I suggest you start out with just two, that will be difficult enough. Once you work out the details, you can simply add a second pair, a second set, (8 pulses), for more power. At first I would forget three, not to say they wouldn't be just as good.
At least in my pea brain, I have enough difficulty figuring out only two.
I should think that it's a no brainier that the next problem is, how to reset the sliders. Here is where the "lifters" come in. He stated that they aren't shown, ( MT-15 ), but people could here them fall, so they have to be there, and are absolutely necessary to reset the sliders. What makes it so difficult, is it has to be done fast. Fahren!! I think now, I know how it was done.
I have to take a brake. Agor, are you with me so far? Is anyone with me?
Any questions so far? Please don't hesitate to ask. Where was I, oh yes, The "lifters". It's been difficult. Sense the sliders are double acting it follows that the lifters should be double acting also.
After going through a bucket of levers, I found that a bell crank, double acting lever, works good. One for each slider. Which pulls the slider back and forth with wires, (pulls). I think Bessler mentioned in a couple of places, a lever or levers with a ratio of 4 to 1. A 4 to 1 up ratio gives an acceleration of 4 times gravity. Fahren right?
It takes a massive weight to do that, mounted close to the center of the wheel to prevent bottom heaviness. It's like a catapult. I.E., the weight is mounted to the short end of the bell crank; the pulls to the long end. When the weight falls it yanks the slider over and the wheel begins to rotate.
This new lifter hasn't been tried yet so I could be wrong but, don't think so. Anyway this is a key part of Bessler's wheel. Still don't know the exact weight to use or the right ratio. Just have to try things and see. Like every thing else.
This is a little over simplified but, I think you can see how The wheel worked. Also the two lifters produce the additional 4 thumps, 8 total per. revolution. I.E., Two sliders and two lifters, double acting, gives 8 thumps, as reported.
Your Sim is great. All I know is a hack saw and a file. I would like to add one other thing. I think the "Pulls" should fasten to the back of the compression spring to give the slider boost, then it releases. Like a bow and arrow.
I know I am opening a can of worms , but the 4th translation on page one is probably the worst translation I have come across , including that from jim_mich .
To include the whole dictionary in a translation is just a very bad idea , pick one even if it is one from ene mini myni no .
